Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

Discuss everything about Honda GoldWing. Feel free to ask any question related to GoldWing.

Moderators: CYBORG, Oldewing, robin1731, Forum Moderators

Post Reply
socrace
Titanium Member
Titanium Member
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:46 pm
Location: Springfield, Ill.

Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#1

Post by socrace »

Recently installed a 4 coil ignition system on the GL1100. It’s been running well for a few weeks now, so time to do a write-up.
cop coils
cop coils
coilR50.JPG (61.93 KiB) Viewed 1352 times
First off, it should be said that the stock GL1100 ignition gets the job done 99.99% of the time, so this mod will address, at most, the remaining .01%! That being said, the overall goal was to gain some additional ignition energy, loose the high voltage spark plug wires, reduce electrical interference, and free up some space under the shelter.

The basic method used here is not new, it’s been done before by BMW and several British twins and triples going back to the 50s and 70s, and by many other waste fire engine owners more recently. After the change, the basic ignition is still waste fire, but with one coil per plug. Major advantages are that each coil fires only one plug (instead of 2), and that all 4 plugs have the same polarity (instead of 2 reversed).
Here is a diagram showing how the 2 coil and 4 coil systems are wired:
ford coils.gif
ford coils.gif (28.92 KiB) Viewed 1352 times
The modified ignition system is still all stock Honda, other than the four coils and ballast resistor.
The coils used are Ford late model “mod motor” COP (coil-on-plug) and usually sell for around $7 each used. One source for them is a 2003 F150 (all models). As seen in the photo, they connect directly to the stock Honda spark plug terminals (with some rework with the bench grinder). Here’s another description of the method: http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... ustang.htm

As a rough test of effectiveness of the system, I decided to create a problem by forcing a rich mixture misfire. After adding about 40% global fuel, the motor misfired badly above 4000 rpm, and would not rev to 6000. Then switched to the 4 coil system and took the bike back out. This time no misfire, even up to 6000 rpm. The 4 coils seemed to be doing something, and was at least worth a closer look.

Decided to collect some objective data showing the energy input to the coils under the two systems. Waveforms for both systems were measured using an oscilloscope, and the energy available to each plug calculated. The energy units are in millijoules, which is a smaller version of kilowatt-hours, if that helps to visualize things:

Dwell @ rpm, GL1100 stock reluctance triggers, for both systems:
0350 9.5 ms (cranking)
1000 8.3 ms
3000 3.6 ms
6000 2.0 ms
9000 1.7 ms

Energy per plug, GL1100 stock system, 2 Stock coils, 1.5 ohm ballast:
0350 64 mj
1000 59 mj
3000 27 mj
6000 12 mj
9000 08 mj

Energy per plug, GL1100 stock system, 4 COP coils, 0.5 ohm ballast:
0350 100 mj
1000 093 mj
3000 043 mj
6000 019 mj
9000 013 mj

As can be seen, the calculated energy gain is pretty substantial, in line with the rich-running misfire test.

Here is one of the scope traces, this one taken across a .5 ohm ballast resistor powering 2 Ford COP coils in series. Scale is 5ms H and 2v V. It basically shows a smooth 6mh charge curve with no evidence of saturation. This means that the current could probably be increased some more, although it’s already approaching 10 amps peak. Fourteen gauge or larger wire is best to wire up the coils.
BitScope.6.png
BitScope.6.png (6.07 KiB) Viewed 1352 times
Also did some additional energy calculations, this time for the GL1000 stock points system with Honda 2 ohm coil and 3 ohm ballast. Also did calculations for the Dyna electronic ignition points conversion system, using the same Honda coils and 1 ohm ballast. Then, also looked at using 4 Ford coils and 2 ohm ballast with both systems.

The dwell numbers below are different than the GL1100 because they are based on a point’s system constant 88 deg camshaft dwell. Honda does not specify dwell, but 88 deg is about the largest possible given that the ignition system will stop working correctly at 90 deg and above.

Dwell @ rpm, constant 88 deg, for both points and Dyna systems:
0350 42.2 ms (cranking)
1000 14.8 ms
3000 04.9 ms
6000 02.5 ms
9000 01.6 ms

Energy per plug, points, stock 2 ohm coils, 3 ohm ballast:
0350 70 mj (3 ohm ballast bypassed while cranking)
1000 11 mj
3000 10 mj
6000 07 mj
9000 05 mj

Energy per plug, points, 4 COP .5 ohm coils, 3 ohm + 1 ohm ballasts:
0350 82 mj (3 ohm ballast bypassed while cranking)
1000 13 mj
3000 12 mj
6000 08 mj
9000 06 mj

The energy gain is still there with 4 coils but not as great. The current capacity of the points and condenser is not a good match to the Ford low inductance coils.

Finally, did an estimate for the Dyna S (model DS1-3) conversion, using a stock 2 ohm coil, and using their supplied 1 ohm ballast:

Energy per plug, Dyna S with stock Honda 2 ohm coils, 1 ohm ballast:
0350 77 mj (1 ohm ballast bypassed while cranking)
1000 34 mj
3000 24 mj
6000 12 mj
9000 07 mj

Energy per plug, Dyna S with 4 COP .5 ohm coils, 1 ohm +1 ohm ballasts:
0350 91 mj (1 ohm ballast bypassed while cranking)
1000 40 mj
3000 29 mj
6000 15 mj
9000 09 mj

As shown, the Dyna S does a great job in increasing energy as compared with the points system. And the 4 coil system is worth some here as well.
1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
User avatar
JBz
SUPER BIKER!!!!
SUPER BIKER!!!!
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:11 pm
Location: dayton nv

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#2

Post by JBz »

WOw. What a test and a Great write up. I read that the COPs were better and Honda has used them on their CBRs. Also less IFR I believe that's the terminology. Does it have a different exhaust sound than the wasted spark?? Thanks JB
jbz........... Thinkin about sh-t too hard and You wont get anything done
User avatar
sunnbobb
Facebook Admin
Facebook Admin
Posts: 21272
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:09 pm
My Album: http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery/v/wingmans/sunnbobb/
Location: LaConner, WA

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#3

Post by sunnbobb »

Nice write!
I found the end of the internet

---- Bradshaw Bikes custom polishing for your wing. Visit us on facebook!

1978 Learning Experience
1980 County Road Hauler "Brain Damage"
1978 Cafe Custom Gl1000 "Vyper"
1977 Bulldog Inspired "Vaincre"
1981 Street Fighter GL1100 "No Quarter"
1983 Supercharged Street Drag "Anubis" (in worx)
1983 gl1100 mint restoration "Kristen"
1985 Aspencade..pondering.
User avatar
jimmyz3286
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 629
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:04 pm
Location: Mount Vernon, Wa

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#4

Post by jimmyz3286 »

I am was already looking for coils to do the same thing I already have plated to mount them on top of the plug. This is how I have planning mine sunnbobb. Thanks for the write up. I was going to debut mine but you beat me to it. lol

Like!
"The rain collected pools of images at my feet and they asked the direction to the ocean."

1982 GL1100 Silverback
2004 Roadstar For Sale
1981 CX500 café project for Anakin
User avatar
Red2trike
Titanium Member
Titanium Member
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:57 am
Location: PA,USA

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#5

Post by Red2trike »

Nice job. Clean job. Can I get one for my 1985, GL1200 Aspencade trike????????? PLEASE????????

Great to have the pics and all this info. Maybe my buddy (electrician/Street Rodder) and I can figger this out and put it on the trike.....mmmmmmm. He'll like this set-up........mmmmmmm, maybe he could use it on the 41 Willy's street rod.....with the blower and get rid of those carbs!!!!!!! Now that would be nice as well.

RT2
User avatar
Fred Camper
Vice President
Vice President
Posts: 6913
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:38 pm
My Album: http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery/v/wingmans/Jeff+Bozeman/
Location: Metro Detroit
Contact:

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#6

Post by Fred Camper »

Very clean solution. Thank you for all the experimental data, very helpful.
Proud member of the NGW Cartel (Rochester MI)
1977 GL1000 BADDOG (April 2012 BOTM)
1976 LTD - '993 LTD...and so it begins'

You should remember that it's peace of mind you're after and not just fixing the machine. R.Pirsig
socrace
Titanium Member
Titanium Member
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:46 pm
Location: Springfield, Ill.

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#7

Post by socrace »

Thanks all, JBz, sunnbobb, immyz3286, Red2trike, Fred Camper!
1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
User avatar
jdvorchak
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 5238
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 8:01 pm
Location: East Alton, IL

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#8

Post by jdvorchak »

JBz wrote:WOw. What a test and a Great write up. I read that the COPs were better and Honda has used them on their CBRs. Also less IFR I believe that's the terminology. Does it have a different exhaust sound than the wasted spark?? Thanks JB
Looks like dyslexia got ya there JB... It's RFI or Radio Frequency Interference.. Hey you only had 2 letters in the wrong place! lolol
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help:
http://ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST


Don't fix it 'til it's broke...
The person with the most toys wins!
If it has wheels or a skirt you can't afford it.
Amateur Radio Station WW9L

71 CL350 with Bingham side car
2021 HD Triglide
2008 HD Dyna Low Rider
83 KZ1100L1 Son totaled it
83 KZ550LTD Shaft sold

Previous bikes: 84 GL1200 STD, 83 KZ550LTD, 83 CB1000, 78 CB400A, 82 CB900F, 79 CB750K, 2001 GL1800, 2000 Dyna Super Glide, 1972 CB350 K4, 1985 GL1200A, 1997 1200 Sportster, 84 GL1200I, 82 Honda CM400E, 81 Suzuki GS650L, 72 Triumph Bonneville 750, 72 Honda CB350, 66(?) Honda 305 Scrambler, 6? Yamaha yz250, 62 650 Matchless (Norton-Villers).
John
User avatar
JBz
SUPER BIKER!!!!
SUPER BIKER!!!!
Posts: 3070
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:11 pm
Location: dayton nv

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#9

Post by JBz »

jdvorchak wrote:
JBz wrote:WOw. What a test and a Great write up. I read that the COPs were better and Honda has used them on their CBRs. Also less IFR I believe that's the terminology. Does it have a different exhaust sound than the wasted spark?? Thanks JB
Looks like dyslexia got ya there JB... It's RFI or Radio Frequency Interference.. Hey you only had 2 letters in the wrong place! lolol

close 2 out of 3 aint bad lolol .............jb
jbz........... Thinkin about sh-t too hard and You wont get anything done
User avatar
Roady
Member Relations &_Graphics
Member Relations &_Graphics
Posts: 11957
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: Port St. John, FL

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#10

Post by Roady »

Excellent.

This is going into ShopTalk and How-To 4 Wings.
User avatar
Brant
Board of Directors
Board of Directors
Posts: 10128
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:31 am
My Album: http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery/v/wingmans/brant/
Location: Hastings, Nebraska, USA

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#11

Post by Brant »

And it's fuel injected? Did I miss something? Pretty impressive.
83 GL 1100 bagger Ugly Betty
ALL WE WANT TO DO IS DRINK OUR ESPRESSO, RIDE OUR MACHINES, AND NOT BE HASSLED BY THE MAN
Owning a motorcycle is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.
"Don't sweat the little things, guys, take care and appreciate all that you have around you!" - Fewman
NGWclub on Facebook
User avatar
Brant
Board of Directors
Board of Directors
Posts: 10128
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:31 am
My Album: http://www.ngwclub.com/gallery/v/wingmans/brant/
Location: Hastings, Nebraska, USA

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#12

Post by Brant »

Aw, just read the efi thread. All I can say is very impressive. Thanks for all the sharing of knowledge.
83 GL 1100 bagger Ugly Betty
ALL WE WANT TO DO IS DRINK OUR ESPRESSO, RIDE OUR MACHINES, AND NOT BE HASSLED BY THE MAN
Owning a motorcycle is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.
"Don't sweat the little things, guys, take care and appreciate all that you have around you!" - Fewman
NGWclub on Facebook
User avatar
silverbullit
Chrome Member
Chrome Member
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:02 am
Location: central california

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#13

Post by silverbullit »

Just what I was lookin 4.


This will be the first real mod that should be done to any 1000

it has always been a weak point.
What I say is based on Google and Yrs.of
experience, in the stream of time not even a
blink......So take anything I say as merely inconsequential babble.


Herd:1979 Cx500C,1979 Cx500S,1982 Gl500I,1982? Suzuki GL650G SDG 50 1977 GL1000
The Departed:Schwinn w/3.5 Briggs
1948 Salisbury scooter (9hp Wisconsin power)
1947 Harley Knucklehead
1968 Honda S90,
1970 BSA Thunderbolt,
1979 CX500D Dresser aka.The Slug(Guess why)
1978 GL1000(showroom bike Supulveda Honda last '78 in stock)
asked for best deal $950,slug got left in the dust.........as usual.
1978 Z w/ big bore kit.(long story)
2001 Suzi Bandit 1200S,great bike
About 30 or 40 others.
User avatar
ericheath
Honored Life Member
Honored Life Member
Posts: 9581
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Winnipeg, Manituba

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#14

Post by ericheath »

Wire in an adjustable rpm window switch at perhaps 5k RPM to trigger a relay and bypass the ballast resistors, (like when starting the bike) and you would get big spark at upper rpm as well.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
User avatar
silverbullit
Chrome Member
Chrome Member
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:02 am
Location: central california

Re: Another Ignition Coil Option - 4 coils

#15

Post by silverbullit »

This is what I need to do.

I'm letting it sink in and drawing the plan in my head.

Won't be a copy visually but inspired and electronically

similar.

Total investment including the pieces that will loose

their smoke less than $100.

Something that would have cost $2000 just a few years ago.

and I did put EricHeath Kit but that is mostly due to A DD

Used to be A D H D but the hyper went.
Last edited by silverbullit on Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
What I say is based on Google and Yrs.of
experience, in the stream of time not even a
blink......So take anything I say as merely inconsequential babble.


Herd:1979 Cx500C,1979 Cx500S,1982 Gl500I,1982? Suzuki GL650G SDG 50 1977 GL1000
The Departed:Schwinn w/3.5 Briggs
1948 Salisbury scooter (9hp Wisconsin power)
1947 Harley Knucklehead
1968 Honda S90,
1970 BSA Thunderbolt,
1979 CX500D Dresser aka.The Slug(Guess why)
1978 GL1000(showroom bike Supulveda Honda last '78 in stock)
asked for best deal $950,slug got left in the dust.........as usual.
1978 Z w/ big bore kit.(long story)
2001 Suzi Bandit 1200S,great bike
About 30 or 40 others.
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “GoldWing Tech Discussions”