Bin that damper plate!

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Old Fogey
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Bin that damper plate!

Post #1 by Old Fogey » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:41 pm

I'm sure this has been mentioned before but here goes anyway.

When I was dismantling the 76 engine, in the filter trap and around it there was loads of clutch friction material, along with piles of other crap.

Image


When I dismantled the clutch, here was the reason!

Image


Theres a bit more info with the pics in my Photobucket album.

In the middle of the clutch pack there sits the most horrendous piece of engineering which Honda call 'Plate B'.

It's a clutch damper, two plain plates which sandwich a number of spring steel strips between them to give a cushioning effect to the clutch action.

The steel strips are held by TINY BRASS rivets, one end of each strip rivetted to one plate and the other end to the second plate.

As the strips flex the rivets are either worn through or pulled out of the plates. If you check the above pic you will see the result.

In these pics you can see the results of the one strip which came completely out.

Image

Image


This one shows the components.

Image


Obviously bits of rivet could easily get into the clutch oil pump and cause all kinds of damage, the errant steel strip could jam the clutch or the oilpump drive chain etc.

I can't even see the reasoning behind having this abomination. There is enough slack in a chain primary drive to give some cushioning plus the output shaft has a spring shock absorber, so this just seems like overkill to me.

So, if you've got to do the clutch, do yourself a favour and heave this thing into the nearest bin.

Of course, that then leaves the clutch pack short of the thickness of the damper.

Easily remedied! The plain plates are just a tiny fraction thinner then the damper, so purchase an extra plain plate, but be careful where you fit it.

It needs to go here, directly onto the spring carrier. This is double good as it provides a steel surface for the first friction plate instead of the alloy of the spring carrier.

Image


There's a bit more info with the pics in my ENGINE REBUILD TIPS, page 4.


Addendum

Something interesting came up whilst I was over in the States this year. In the course of replacing the clutch on one of his engines, Steve Seamans noticed that the Plate B that came out had internal teeth on both the plain metal side plates!
This is obviously what should have been the correct design right from the beginning, as now the spring plates and rivets only have to provide the cushioning effect that they were intended for, and do not have to transmit any torque at all.

It would seem that Honda realised that there was a problem and brought out a modification but I have no idea as to when this was instigated. I have three GL1000 clutches sitting here; all three have the original single toothed B plate.

So if you have one of these modified plates, you may want to keep it, except for one thing; strangely, the rivets that hold the spring steel straps are still made from brass in the later one. Not the best engineering solution!

Steve also found that doing the conversion as outlined above resulted in his clutch having an unacceptable rattling when the lever was pulled in.This is probably caused by the plain plates vibrating against the alloy when the spring pressure is released but I'm at a loss to explain why his should be noisy and mine quiet. It may be due to individual clearance settings (I guess you could always tell people that you have a Ducati clutch fitted! :-D
Last edited by Old Fogey on Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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ENGINE REBUILD TIPS - Stuff you won't find in the manuals!


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Post #2 by ElPiloto » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:40 pm

...the most horrendous piece of engineering which Honda call 'Plate B'...


That says it all. I never could understand why Honda felt they needed such a thing in the first place.

I was going to try to fit an extra pair of friction/steel plates in there to replace it, but I think your idea is better.
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Post #3 by Neil » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:10 pm

Thanks Fogey, good insight as always :)

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Post #4 by sunnbobb » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:16 pm

Great observation and even better fix. Nice job.
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Post #5 by Old Fogey » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:02 pm

Sorry guys,

Misleading you a bit (again) :oops: .

Obviously, since the damper plate is in effect a plain plate, it has to be replaced in the middle of the pack with a proper plain plate.
I added the other plate at the spring carrier end to make up the difference in thickness. So you need two more plain plates, not one.
Overall the pack thickness increases by about 0.5mm but there is still plenty of free play left.

( remember please, this is engine is still on the bench. I believe it will be good on the road too, I wouldn't have put it here otherwise, but time will tell!)
--------------------------------------------------------

'The Swan' complete rebuild album - See the result here!

ENGINE REBUILD TIPS - Stuff you won't find in the manuals!


"Impossible Is Just a Level of Difficulty!..."
If I'd wanted you to understand, I would have explained it better! (Johann Cruyff)
I’d give my right arm to be ambidextrous! :-D

click the banners below:
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( Seriously, you haven't read all 115 pages of the WinGovations website ?? :shock: )

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Post #6 by puffy75 » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:43 pm

This is also proof of how silly it is to do a clutch replacement and not change the oil and filter or clean that screen.
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Post #7 by RAT » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:48 pm

Old Fogey wrote:Sorry guys,

Misleading you a bit (again) :oops: .

Obviously, since the damper plate is in effect a plain plate, it has to be replaced in the middle of the pack with a proper plain plate.
I added the other plate at the spring carrier end to make up the difference in thickness. So you need two more plain plates, not one.
Overall the pack thickness increases by about 0.5mm but there is still plenty of free play left.

( remember please, this is engine is still on the bench. I believe it will be good on the road too, I wouldn't have put it here otherwise, but time will tell!)


Has Time Told yet? :roll:

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Post #8 by rogue1000 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:01 pm

It sounds good. I'll hang out with Gord and see how it works :-D
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Post #9 by stuka151 » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:21 pm

Inquiring minds need to know. I see some clutch work in the near future on the 1100.
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Post #10 by Old Fogey » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:41 pm

Tonight's the night, boys!

Let you know tomorrow.
--------------------------------------------------------

'The Swan' complete rebuild album - See the result here!

ENGINE REBUILD TIPS - Stuff you won't find in the manuals!


"Impossible Is Just a Level of Difficulty!..."
If I'd wanted you to understand, I would have explained it better! (Johann Cruyff)
I’d give my right arm to be ambidextrous! :-D

click the banners below:
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( Seriously, you haven't read all 115 pages of the WinGovations website ?? :shock: )

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Post #11 by CYBORG » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:50 pm

fingers are crossed. and a splash of scotch whiskey to apease the bike gods. good luck. still time to make the big reservations for randakks
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Post #12 by Old Fogey » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:18 pm

Well, took it for a run last night, was not happy with the clutch, not predictable and grabby. Plus the trans clonked like crazy shifting gear.

Re-bled it (again!) and remembering that there were new friction plates in it, stuck the front wheel against the wall and BURNED them in for a minute.(Brutal or what! :shock: )

RESULT! action1 Just took it up the road, very smooth clutch action now and the gears engage without a noise (well, no more than a normal Wing).

Although I was a bit worried about the lever pressure on my duff left hand it was fine.

Overall very pleased with the various modifications to it.

Recommended!
--------------------------------------------------------

'The Swan' complete rebuild album - See the result here!

ENGINE REBUILD TIPS - Stuff you won't find in the manuals!


"Impossible Is Just a Level of Difficulty!..."
If I'd wanted you to understand, I would have explained it better! (Johann Cruyff)
I’d give my right arm to be ambidextrous! :-D

click the banners below:
Image Image Image

( Seriously, you haven't read all 115 pages of the WinGovations website ?? :shock: )

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Post #13 by RAT » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:35 pm

Good news.

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Post #14 by CYBORG » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:41 pm

so when are you putting it on the boat for america? everyone wants to see it in person.
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Post #15 by Old Fogey » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:03 pm

CYBORG wrote:so when are you putting it on the boat for america? everyone wants to see it in person.



Email back from the shipping agent.

Dated 9th April

Hi John
Yes you are right. I’ll chase my agent in Norfolk now…

Thanks,

David A C Reed

James Cargo Services Ltd

(Inc JCS Livestock Ltd)

Manchester Airport

Result? Nothing, Zero, Ziltch.

Email to David Read today;


Hi David,

Still not heard anything back from you.
The bike is now running and ready to go but until I know costs for both outbound and return and also the lead time needed to get it there in time for me to pick it up on 15th or 16th September my plans are in limbo.
Please get back to me ASAP . If this job isn't a suitable one for you please let me know that also so that I can try to find an alternative carrier.

Thank you,

John
--------------------------------------------------------

'The Swan' complete rebuild album - See the result here!

ENGINE REBUILD TIPS - Stuff you won't find in the manuals!


"Impossible Is Just a Level of Difficulty!..."
If I'd wanted you to understand, I would have explained it better! (Johann Cruyff)
I’d give my right arm to be ambidextrous! :-D

click the banners below:
Image Image Image

( Seriously, you haven't read all 115 pages of the WinGovations website ?? :shock: )


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