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octane
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#136

Post by octane »

mooseheadm5 wrote:I am not 100% certain on this, so I will ask. Is the coil secondary is actually wound around the primary several dozen times and not in a single run? i.e., does the wire get wound from one end of the bar to the other, then back and forth to make the many many winds of wire needed? I think so. It cannot possibly be one layer, as in the diagrammatic representation, the cutaway view shows that. If the wire gets wound around several times why can it not jump from one part of the coil secondary to another part of the coil secondary? That would be easier than jumping all the way past the coil primary to the ground lug then through the frame to the engine jumping the gap and coming back to the coil secondary. Ideas?
My guesstimate;
1..Because the tension enabling it to actually make a spark
is between the two ends of the secondary wiring,
let's say, for the sake of argument: the first and the 989th.(fictive number of windings)

Not between the first and the second, or the second and the 98th,
or the 98th and the 456th,
or what ever.

That would explain why it doesn't jump 'internally'
from x'th sec. coil-winding to y'th sec. coil winding




Now why doesn't it jump from one end of
sec. winding through the insulation-->to core-->jump again through insulation
-->to other end of the sec. winding

2..Current will always chose the easiest way
in terms of resistance.
Not necessarily co-related to distance.

In case of both plugs present:
It's easier to go via the leads and frame
and jump two plug with a tiny o,6mm gap
than jumping from the start of the winding through a thick insulation
and onto the metal core,
and then back again through the insulation yet again to reach the 'last' winding
(Not the plug-leads, nor the engine/frame
represent any noticeable resistance)



In case of one plug missing:
it has no choice,
it can only complete the circuit by
jumping as described above
through the insulation to the core
(but in this situation only one 'jump')
having been deprived the 'easy' way via the (second) plug.

Image

According to what Nixon says
that's exactly what happens.
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#137

Post by mooseheadm5 »

Physically, and resistance wise, it might be easier, in theory, for the spark to jump totally internally in the absence of a second plug. The diagram you drew shows only one winding. If there were several windings, it would seem that the spark could more easily jump from winding to winding than from winding to ground due to the proximity and the large amount of insulation between the secondary and ground. Jumping this way may be easier than actually jumping the gap in the presence of a compressed mixture which has high ionization energy. Of course, it is possible that there is one part of the coil secondary wire that is close to the ground rod, so I don't know.
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#138

Post by hmratbam »

Another possible factor here could be the amount of voltage required to fire the plug. I believe this is in the neighborhood of 20,000 volts under normal conditions. If that circuit is open,the voltage will build to the design limits of the coil. I have no idea what that might be in our systems. In a "modern" capacitive discharge system the voltage will build until it finds a path to ground,often thru the collector-emitter junction of the lowest rated transistor in the system. At that point the system becomes non-funtional.
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octane
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#139

Post by octane »

mooseheadm5 wrote:Physically, and resistance wise, it might be easier, in theory, for the spark to jump totally internally in the absence of a second plug.....
Why would it do that?
In absence of plug II, there is no 'reason'/tension to jump from
one part of the sec. winding--->to another part of the sec. winding.

It would NOT complete the ciruit.
The 'tension' is between plug-lead I---via plug I--->ground.
To complete the circuit ("releave tension")
current will seak a way to do just that.
Jumping to ground(via the core) is the ONLY way.
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#140

Post by mooseheadm5 »

Sorry, I meant plug 1.
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#141

Post by octane »

mooseheadm5 wrote:Sorry, I meant plug 1.
Now I'm totally confused.
It's exactly the same thing, I or II

Just flip the pic and reverse the sparks

Image
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#142

Post by mooseheadm5 »

It would not be the same because of the polarity of the circuit. If 1 was there and 2 was not, the energy could go from coil secondary + down wire, jump gap at plug to ground jump from ground to any of the windings of the coil secondary.
If plug 1 was missing and plug 2 was there, the energy could not go from coil secondary + down wire, so it would jump internally. I am saying that it would not have to jump internally to ground then jump gap at the #2 plug and then back up to coil secondary -, but that it could jump from coil secondary + to any of the windings inside the coil near the coil secondary - and that might be easier physically and electrically.
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#143

Post by octane »

mooseheadm5 wrote:It would not be the same because of the polarity of the circuit. If 1 was there and 2 was not, the energy could go from coil secondary + down wire, jump gap at plug to ground jump from ground to any of the windings of the coil secondary.
If plug 1 was missing and plug 2 was there, the energy could not go from coil secondary + down wire, so it would jump internally. I am saying that it would not have to jump internally to ground then jump gap at the #2 plug and then back up to coil secondary -, but that it could jump from coil secondary + to any of the windings inside the coil near the coil secondary - and that might be easier physically and electrically.
I'm afraid I just don't understand your post?!
(Please: I'm not putting you down or anything;
just saying that I'm not capable of understanding it)

But:

Plug II missing:

Image


Plug I missing:

Image

Same thing , just reversed; polarity / spark-jump direction.
STILL has to jump internally to complete the circuit.

mooseheadm5 wrote:... but that it could jump from coil secondary + to any of the windings inside the coil near the coil secondary - and that might be easier physically and electrically.
I'm not sure I get what you're saying but;
no it wont jump from sec. winding to "..any windings inside the coil.."
To COMPLETE the circuit (or connect the 'tension-field' between the two ENDs of the sec. winding...if you will)
it has to jump to the only ground there is;
the core (which is ground'ed)
Last edited by octane on Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#144

Post by octane »

Todays riddle:

What the similarity between an ignition coil internal and this thread?

























They're both VERY long and winding
and are both capable of creating tension.



....ha ha ha!
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#145

Post by mooseheadm5 »

I don't have a way to draw you a nice little diagram, but take your yellow coil, and draw it going back and forth several hundered times and you quickly see that there are wires in that coil that are much closer to each other than from coil secondary to ground to plug gap back to coil. That winding does not go from one end to the other like in your picture, it goes from one end, back to the other, back again, many many times like a spool of wire. The circuit can be complete if the potential difference is great enough from the + side of the coil secondary to and of the windings in the coil secondary that are at a lower potential. If the linear center of the wire used to make the coil secondary is roughly at 0V and each end roughly at 40kV (+ or -) and goes from 0V to 40kV, then there is a spot where there is a bit of +40kV wire comes closer to a bit of 0V or -x V potential wire and that means that instead of jumping to ground that the energy could jump internally from the end of the winding for the coil secondary back to any other winding in the coil secondary that is a) closer physically that the ground rod and b) more attractive, electrically, than the ground rod and c) has much less insulation to jump through than a path to the ground rod. Or at least I think that can happen and am wondering why, if it can, it does not. I definitely believe that the spark can jump internally in the coil.
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