The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

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Shadowjack
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#31

Post by Shadowjack »

Did you take rocker ratio into account? For a given lobe lift, the 1200 rocker looks like it would open the valve a lot farther than the 1000 rocker. A good way to get the valves acquainted with the pistons, if you didn't allow for it.
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ericheath
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#32

Post by ericheath »

Okay, I’ve been on vacation for a bit. It was fun but back to retirement! Darn!!!

So how does my bike run with stock 87 1200 heads and 85 cams and 764a carbs?? I didn’t get to ride it much, but with the large intake runners going into smaller ports at the head, it couldn’t be ideal. So I figured a way so I now have my V65 carbs on a 1200 plenum using 1200 intake runners. It’s taken a bit to get it synced and jetting close. Stock 105 main jets (105) from a 1200 carb were quite lean. I now have 140 mains and a 40 idle jet. (I will probably put a 35 idle jet in as it won’t idle below 1100 rpm) It is much quicker and a ton more powerful at the bottom end. I can take off smoothly, be underway at 10-15mph and hit the throttle and instantly see 5500 rpm. Back end is a little squirrelly, but not bad if I’m headed straight. The 77 heads and cams would spin the tire also, but not as quickly or as quick a rise in rpm. Shift at 7000 and it bolts forward. It was only around fifty degrees here today so tire is probably stiff. I have about 40psi in the 195/55/16 Falken.

So I have tried quite a few combinations over the last five years. The push to try the 77 heads and cams originally came from reports in 2010 of a few who had done it, but all had done it in 1000 or 1100 frames. It’s definitely a good mod, but I’m really having my doubts as to whether it’s the heads and cams or the lighter bike and lower gearing. The recent posts here discussing weights of the bikes informed me the 1200 standard is a lot heavier bike. Probably a combination of all of the above. The 75-77’s cams and larger intake valve are probably going to give a bit more at higher rpm. I have asked of other 1200-with-1000-heads riders if they had ridden a stock 1200 to compare because I never have. The ones who had say the 1000 heads on a 1200 is faster.

The desire to try the 1200 heads — which greedy me tried to get the 1000 cams stuffed in there, whoops— mostly came from Robin and others comments about the ports being too big. I have run across a few articles of HD guys who have better luck using smaller ports on them. I could never afford to have the heads made and ported, so using the 1200 heads and ports were the logical step to try. And in this attempt we now know the 1200’s seemingly smaller cams are actually as big if not bigger liftwise due to the different rocker ratio. The way I see it, the only advantage to the swap is 2mm bigger intake valves.

My carbs are probably less than ideal but seem to work well. They are 34mm venturi compared to the 1200’s 32 mm venturi. They get stuffed down into the smaller runners right at the carb exit, but the exit of the carb and the ID of the runner are pretty close. I had to team the rubber of the boots to accommodate the larger carbs. One thing they lack is a cut-off valve to enrich when down shifting. At high rpm it pops loudly. I’m not sure what the V65 used but they don’t have the same ports for the tubes as the 1200 carbs. They look externally just like 1200 carbs, just a little larger. The linkages from the 1200 had to be used with the larger v65 butterflies.

My butt-Dyno tells me this one is much faster off the line. That’s just an opinion from a guy who really doesn’t know much, but my suspicion is leaning toward the 1000 head/cam mod as being over inflated for the above mentioned reasons: lighter bikes and lower geared final drives. Some have put higher geared final drives in, like mine, but it’s still in a lighter bike.

I’m guessing Cyborg’s stock 1200 in a 1000 is pretty darn responsive with a 3.40:1 final drive. For all that has to be done to round up the parts, just dropping a 1200 straight into a 1000 or 1100 is going to feel pretty good without risk of any damages from notching the pistons.

I’m hoping my mpg improves a bit with this mod, but I am not likely to get many rides in the way the weather has been here lately. Snow yesterday, 23F this morning.

Now there’s a lot of opinion in what I’ve written. and I’m not looking for a pink slip race or a $10000 challenge race, and I’m not writing this to diss anyone else, but putting this out there for others to make informed decisions.

I’m hoping to get it to dragstrip for kicks. I just haven’t been able to find someplace that sells bigger balls. :-o
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Easter
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#33

Post by Easter »

How about an updated picture of your rig?
Bikes at present:

83 XL 600r with a 2004 XR650L engine
And a slightly worse for the wear BMW GS adventure bike awaiting repair
83 GL in process :IDTS:
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CYBORG
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#34

Post by CYBORG »

I don't profess to have a valid opinion on this on going debut. I think one has to evaluate what type of riding you enjoy. I just returned from a ride to Cleveland, (about 350miles one way), on my 1200. Some rain cool air. The bike purred along 75 - 80 mph, for 5 hours. Smooth, 4000RPM, never missed a beat. Stock 86 engine. That has become my kind of riding,....and I love it. That's what 1200's were meant to do. Some bikes are designed to be drag racers. Some to get attention with loud pipes. Some for off road. 1200's were meant to do the long haul in quit comfort. Reliable comfort. Using mine that way has resulted in less wrenching, engineering , and more riding. And to me that is what it is all about. Ya. I'm old.....but maybe wiser because of it. Just a vent. But enjoying my bikes, the way they are intended to be used.
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ericheath
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#35

Post by ericheath »

Easter, I haven’t got a recent pic. It’s the same as previous pics but 1200 valve covers now. It’s supposed to flurry and rain today. Tomorrow might get in the fifties while the 14 day forecast is not good. I’m not sure if there’ll be an Indian summer here. About twenty minutes yesterday and I was pretty cold. A Vetter fairing sounds pretty good right now.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Easter
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#36

Post by Easter »

It is hard to believe the weather is turning cold. We just finally got a break from the high 90's. How far north of the border are you? I lived not far from Detroit for many years and saw a lot of cold weather. But now we are just getting into riding season here in South Texas.
Bikes at present:

83 XL 600r with a 2004 XR650L engine
And a slightly worse for the wear BMW GS adventure bike awaiting repair
83 GL in process :IDTS:
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ericheath
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#37

Post by ericheath »

About 70 miles north of the 49th. It’s just a cold Fall all of a sudden. I saw southern BC and Alberta are supposed to get 20 cm tonight. If it turns white west and northwest of us, we’re usually cold the rest of the winter————- but it barely turned Fall!!
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Easter
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#38

Post by Easter »

Maybe time to go back to the Philippines!
Bikes at present:

83 XL 600r with a 2004 XR650L engine
And a slightly worse for the wear BMW GS adventure bike awaiting repair
83 GL in process :IDTS:
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ericheath
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#39

Post by ericheath »

Daughter is getting married New Year’s Eve. Maybe after that.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#40

Post by Explorer »

I run 1975 cams in my 1100 because that enables me to use the Power Arc ignition on the left head, which in turn allows me to use a DFT Weber. I honestly believe that without all three mods my bike would be a tuning nightmare.
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ericheath
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#41

Post by ericheath »

I have PowerArc off the front crank. I can’t tell a difference between it, Dyna or properly tuned points with adequate coils, except for starting. It seems to start instantly with the 1200 heads and v65 carb setup.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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ericheath
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#42

Post by ericheath »

It’s cold out. So I dragged in a 77 head and cam and an 84 head with an 87 cam and decided to take some measurements again.

I have no oil in the 1200 head and I haven’t figured a way to get it to zero lash by removing the adjusters and replacing with something that resembles a pushrod or lifter. There is no play at the rockerarm valve.

But without any oil, the intake lifts are very close to the same, the exhaust however is considerably greater in the 1200.

My pics are a little out of order but my iPhone or the site won’t let me juggle them.
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If the adjusters pump up and add to the lift, it’s of course more. So as I measured the 1200 has 0.22mm or 0.009” less intake valve lift than an early cam. It does have 2mm smaller diameter valves as well.

The big difference is in the exhaust valves. The 1200 has 1-1/2+mm more lift.

I can’t help but think putting a set of 1200 heads would improve performance of the 1000/1100 models. The 1000’s would be problematic because of the ignition source. I know at one time C5 was offering a drill-the-end-of-the-cam option. The 1100’s could take them.

Again, disclaimer, nobody has done this and I can’t say for certain they will mesh without interference. I strongly believe it would.
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Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
User avatar
Easter
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#43

Post by Easter »

Just bring your bike into the living room and give it a try.
Bikes at present:

83 XL 600r with a 2004 XR650L engine
And a slightly worse for the wear BMW GS adventure bike awaiting repair
83 GL in process :IDTS:
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ericheath
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#44

Post by ericheath »

With a plastic rod cut to the same length as the hydraulic adjuster and in place of the hydraulic adjuster and the adjuster bolt at zero lash the intake lift is 9.86mm.

So the 1000 gets about 9% more curtain area due to its 38mm intake valve to the 1200’s 36mm intake valve.

The 1200 gets 15% more curtain area on the exhaust side.

I wish I knew which is better and why, but my guess is the greater exhaust flow and more overlap helps pull more intake air in yielding a better low rpm performance.

It won’t happen for a while, but I would love to clean these 1200 heads up and toss them on an 1100 block for fun.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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robin1731
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Re: The Great Early Cams in a 1200 Debate

#45

Post by robin1731 »

Not knocking your procedure. You/we use what you/we have. But using a dial indicator on the valve would give a more accurate reading for the lift. ;) anim-cheers1

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