Rear wheel drives

[rcmatt007]

My famous/infamous line, "Anything can be made to fit anything". It just depends on your fabricating skills or how deep your pockets are.

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deep...... empty, but deep

Trading-empty-pockets.jpg (10.47 KiB) Viewed 164 times

[Sidecar Bob]

When you are mixing & matching like that make sure there is something rubber (Honda used either a seal and an o-ring or 2 o-rings depending on the model) to keep the grease in the splines and the dirt out. I mention this a lot because I had to replace the splines on my 650 after an o-ring broke and road grit turned the grease into grinding compound.

[BiKenG]

When you are mixing & matching like that make sure there is something rubber (Honda used either a seal and an o-ring or 2 o-rings depending on the model) to keep the grease in the splines and the dirt out. I mention this a lot because I had to replace the splines on my 650 after an o-ring broke and road grit turned the grease into grinding compound.

I am aware of that, but good point. Something I will look into as I get further into the project.

[ericheath]

Getting a 1200 rim onto a 1000 final drive might be a nice mod for some. The 15” rim raises gearing for easier take offs and lowers the ride height for vertically challenged. Win-win and looks good- win-win-win

[Sidecar Bob]

Um... a smaller wheel would lower the overall gearing... which would make pulling away easier. But it would also make the RPMs at highway speed higher and increase fuel consumption.

But that is based on the same tire width & aspect ratio being used and I doubt that a rim made for a 150/90 tire would be suitable for a 4.50 width (110/100) tire. The theoretical diameter of the 1000 wheel with stock tire would be 26" and the theoretical diameter of the 1200 wheel with stock tire would be 25.63" so the rear end would only be 0.185" (about 3/16") lower and the gearing would only change by about 1.4% (negligible).

The next thing we have to consider is how wide a tire can you use with a 1000 swingarm? For the sake of argument lets assume that you could fit a 130 in there and that said 130/90 tire would be suitable for the rim designed for a 150/90 (I think I'd look make sure such a tire is made AND that a 130 will fit inside the 1000 swingarm before going much farther). The 1200 rear wheel with 130/90-15 tire would have a theoretical diameter of 25.24", which would lower the rear end by 0.38" (about 3/8") and lower the overall gearing by a bit over 3% (still not very significant).

And the wider tire will not handle as well because it will take more effort to lean into turns.

About now some of you will have remembered that BiKenG was talking about an 1100, not a 1000. The 1100 came with a 130/90-17 (t.d.26.21") or a 140/90-16 (t.d. 25.92") rear tire, depending on which year. I doubt that a 150/90 tire will fit either swingarm but I'm sure the 1200 wheel will work with a 140/90 tire, which would have a t.d. of 24.92". which would lower an early 1100 by 0.645" (5/8") and a later one by 0.5" (1/2") and increase the RPM by 5% (early) or 4% (late) (starting to become significant).

So it comes back to how much effort and how many compromises are you willing to make for a cool looking wheel?

[BiKenG]

Um... a smaller wheel would lower the overall gearing... which would make pulling away easier. But it would also make the RPMs at highway speed higher and increase fuel consumption.

But that is based on the same tire width & aspect ratio being used and I doubt that a rim made for a 150/90 tire would be suitable for a 4.50 width (110/100) tire. The theoretical diameter of the 1000 wheel with stock tire would be 26" and the theoretical diameter of the 1200 wheel with stock tire would be 25.63" so the rear end would only be 0.185" (about 3/16") lower and the gearing would only change by about 1.4% (negligible).

The next thing we have to consider is how wide a tire can you use with a 1000 swingarm? For the sake of argument lets assume that you could fit a 130 in there and that said 130/90 tire would be suitable for the rim designed for a 150/90 (I think I'd look make sure such a tire is made AND that a 130 will fit inside the 1000 swingarm before going much farther). The 1200 rear wheel with 130/90-15 tire would have a theoretical diameter of 25.24", which would lower the rear end by 0.38" (about 3/8") and lower the overall gearing by a bit over 3% (still not very significant).
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About now some of you will have remembered that BiKenG was talking about an 1100, not a 1000. The 1100 came with a 130/90-17 (t.d.26.21") or a 140/90-16 (t.d. 25.92") rear tire, depending on which year. I doubt that a 150/90 tire will fit either swingarm but I'm sure the 1200 wheel will work with a 140/90 tire, which would have a t.d. of 24.92". which would lower an early 1100 by 0.645" (5/8") and a later one by 0.5" (1/2") and increase the RPM by 5% (early) or 4% (late) (starting to become significant).

So it comes back to how much effort and how many compromises are you willing to make for a cool looking wheel?

Mostly good points, but it's not necessarily a compromise and there's a lot to play with in terms of wheels, tyres, swing-arms, gearing etc. Ultimately, I will construct a bike that looks how I want it to look and I WILL then make it work the way I want, with the gearing I want. This is not to be some commuter special, nor a 'race track refugee'. It's a big heavy lump of a motorcycle with not a lot of power in today's terms, but they make great custom projects.

And the wider tire will not handle as well because it will take more effort to lean into turns.

C'mon Bob, do you really think you'll tell the difference between say a 130 and a 140 tyre, or even a 150 (all else being equal)? On a big fat Gold Wing? On my FireBlade, on a race track probably yes, but a Gold Wing, on the road? Nah, sorry, I really don't think so. I've ridden bikes with a 240 rear tyre that turned and handled way better than you'll EVER achieve from a Gold Wing.

The profile of the tyre is far more important to how the bike feels in the turns and how easy it is to get there. A narrow tyre with squarer profile will be far worse than a wide tyre with pointy profile and plenty of Wing riders have gone to the darkside with quite wide square car tyres and say it makes little difference.

So am I worried about how a 150 might adversely affect the handling of a Gold Wing bobber, over say a 130 rear tyre? Er, not exactly, no.

[BiKenG]

Talking of gearing, would I be right in thinking the secondary reduction gears of the 1000 would fit in the 1100 and 1200 engines. This would raise the gearing nicely, but looks like the crankcases would need to be split to change them, yes?

[rcmatt007]

it is important to remember that rim size is not the only issue. Often smaller rims have bigger tires. So the 16" front wheel is almost the same diameter as my 19" front wheel because of the tires size

[ericheath]

That’s true, and the way the swingarm is shaped it would likely require surgery for the 15” because the 16” hits on some bikes already.

[robin1731]

You can also loose tire patch contact by putting a wider tire on a rim than it was designed for. Put a 140 or 150 tire on a rim made for a 130 tire and you loose some contact patch. This is because the beads on that wider tire are pulled closer together than they were designed for.

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[rcmatt007]

yes they will get oblong and miss-shapin

[Sidecar Bob]

I agree that these 'Wings aren't the best handling bikes in the world but that means they need all the help they can get. And everything in life (and especially in bike customizing) is a compromise, whether you recognize it as such or not. Very few of the things you can change will have entirely positive results (as in a neat looking wheel that increases the fuel consumption slightly). You can't avoid making compromises and I wasn't telling you not to change your wheel because of the factors I mentioned, I was mostly replying to Eric's comment that a 1200 wheel on a 1000 would be a win-win situation.

Re tire width vs rim width vs profile:
The last tires I had on my 'Wing on 2 wheels were Kenda Kruz (K673). The front had a V shaped profile so that it leaned into turns as easily as a narrower tire but it had a bigger contact patch once leaned. It handled better with them than any other tires I ever had on it.

My winter machine started out as a CX650E (the Eurosport model) and has the original E front wheel which has a 2.50 rim width. I run 3.50-18 tires on it and that produces a much squarer profile than the tire would have on a 2.25 width rim but that's OK on a bike that doesn't lean...

BTW: On cx500forum.com we frequently have people ask about replacing a GL500's original 16" rear wheel with 18" CX500 rear wheel to raise the overall gearing (they run at 7000+ RPM on the highway) and we have to explain to them that it is the tire size and not just the rim size that makes the difference and that, with the stock tire sizes the diameters are virtually identical.

[BiKenG]

As we all know, the gearing resulting from the use of any particular tyre will come from the diameter, the width AND the aspect ratio. In theory, if you want to raise the gearing without going to a wider tyre, try one with just a larger aspect ratio as that would increase the circumference and hence raise the gearing. The problem of course is that not all combinations are available.

After the weight, the lack of gearing adjustability is the biggest drawback of shaft drive.

[Sidecar Bob]

Yeah but it is soooooo nice not to have to clean & lube a chain...

[robin1731]

Yeah but it is soooooo nice not to have to clean & lube a chain...

And the noise.

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