New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

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flyin900
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New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#1

Post by flyin900 »

I have a situation that has become a head scratcher on the 1981 GL1100 I recently acquired that I am just going through to get it running to establish the motor condition. The PO indicated that the bike started having issues with it turning over slowly on the starter or not at all.
Background it is a low klm bike with only 27K kilometers on the bike from new. I have checked the compression and 3X 160 psi and 1 X 140 psi with the bike stored in indoor dry storage for 5 years. I have adjusted the valves and rebuilt the carbs and replaced the starter motor with a new unit the PO supplied. The old starter was dead even when 12V was applied directly to the case/terminal. The new starter spins fine on a test with it free outside the engine and spins the motor fine with no spark plugs installed in the engine.
The motor rotates easily by hand on the alternator bolt and spins great without spark plugs on the new starter. As soon as I install spark plugs and try to start the motor the engine only turns a partial turn on the starter and then is dead. Removing the jumper cables and reattaching gets a partial turn each time only.
I have tried jumping the positive directly to the starter terminal and various ground points on the bike to ensure the ground wire is making a good ground. No change in the only partial turn of the starter/motor for a split second and then nothing until I retouch the connection to the battery to get the same split second turn of the motor.
I am using a lawn tractor battery that I have used many times without issues and also backed it up with the AGM battery off my GL1200, so there were two batteries connected to the set up.
There is no hydro lock and when I adjusted the valves the timing seemed to be correct for each valve and cylinder position. I haven't checked the timing belts at this time as I wanted to get the motor running to see how it runs.
Thoughts on other areas that could be creating the no turn over condition?
Current Bikes:

1966 CL77 - Honda 305cc - Dual purpose - "Gentleman's Scrambler" was a period moniker.
1967 CL175K0 - Low production number with #802 engine serial- winter 2019/2020 full restoration.
1972 CB350F - Baby Four with low mileage - Cosmetic refresh to the next level 2021/2022.
1978 CB550K - Very original bike with only 7499 Km. from new - light cleanup and refresh done.
1983 CB1100F - Canadian model - DOHC Supersport in pristine low kilometre condition from new.
1984 GL1200 - Standard model in showroom condition - two owner bike from new.
1984 CX650E - Restored summer 2017 - a rare Eurosport model - excellent one owner bike.
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RB
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#2

Post by RB »

The battery's ground wire could be corroded inside and when amp's applies it fails.
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flyin900
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#3

Post by flyin900 »

I have tried the booster cables directly to the starter + terminal and various ground points on the frame, so bypassing all main wiring from the battery and solenoid. Same results I am afraid. The new starter doesn't seem to be all the way into the rear case and I believe it grounds through the inner case where it mounts. I thought I could see where the O ring had rolled back out of its groove in the starter, so I will investigate that further. The starter is a chinese unit I believe, as it came with a bunch of Barracuda carb kits and timing belts, so probably the same supplier for all the parts that came with the bike.
Ordered Gates belts and not using the carb kits either. :IDTS:
Current Bikes:

1966 CL77 - Honda 305cc - Dual purpose - "Gentleman's Scrambler" was a period moniker.
1967 CL175K0 - Low production number with #802 engine serial- winter 2019/2020 full restoration.
1972 CB350F - Baby Four with low mileage - Cosmetic refresh to the next level 2021/2022.
1978 CB550K - Very original bike with only 7499 Km. from new - light cleanup and refresh done.
1983 CB1100F - Canadian model - DOHC Supersport in pristine low kilometre condition from new.
1984 GL1200 - Standard model in showroom condition - two owner bike from new.
1984 CX650E - Restored summer 2017 - a rare Eurosport model - excellent one owner bike.
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Sagebrush
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#4

Post by Sagebrush »

I would try it with a car battery that's fully charged. Might be your jumper cables are toast as well. I've seen that before.
Dean Spalding
Raleigh, NC

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

'82 Yellow GL1100
'81 Blue GL1100

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My 1100 Build Thread
Edmaddox
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#5

Post by Edmaddox »

I am far from any expert at any of this stuff and love the help I get from u guys. I will take a crack at this one though. I had a lot of starting issues w/ 2 85$ starters when I spent 200$ something for a starter from Ricks electrics my problems were over.
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Whiskerfish
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#6

Post by Whiskerfish »

Check your valve timing.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!

Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
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flyin900
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#7

Post by flyin900 »

Thanks for the input guys. I did use real booster cables from a car set later and still no go. Dean I ganged the lawn tractor battery with my AGM from my GL1200 which works great and still nothing, so I am sure there was lots of amps available there for the starter motor. I also hooked the battery ground straight to the starter case and the positive to the + terminal on the new starter and still the same results.
I am going to pull the rad and check the valve timing next. If not then I suspect the starter isn't a good quality one. Can the GL1000 starters be used in a GL1100, as someone who tried one says the mounting bolt holes are off a mm or so and can't be mounted correctly? A local NGW member has a couple of GL1000 ones I could try if they will fit.
Current Bikes:

1966 CL77 - Honda 305cc - Dual purpose - "Gentleman's Scrambler" was a period moniker.
1967 CL175K0 - Low production number with #802 engine serial- winter 2019/2020 full restoration.
1972 CB350F - Baby Four with low mileage - Cosmetic refresh to the next level 2021/2022.
1978 CB550K - Very original bike with only 7499 Km. from new - light cleanup and refresh done.
1983 CB1100F - Canadian model - DOHC Supersport in pristine low kilometre condition from new.
1984 GL1200 - Standard model in showroom condition - two owner bike from new.
1984 CX650E - Restored summer 2017 - a rare Eurosport model - excellent one owner bike.
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flyin900
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#8

Post by flyin900 »

I just pulled the rad and checked the timing via the belts and it is bang on correct. I will replace the belts, as I have a new set and planned to do that job anyway. It also has a new style metal blade water pump and lots of red RTV all over the place, so I will eventually pull that cover and replace all the gaskets and O rings. There was some red RTV globules in the top of the rad floating up there at the cap, so someone was RTV happy it appears.

So what do you think? My thoughts are the new starter isn't up to the task of turning the motor over under a load, since it spins fine with no plugs on an extended spin with no weird noises. Since I have wired it direct to the power source under load and still get a no spin situation what else could be the cause.
This motor has the vacuum advancer module on the back case to mechanically advance the timing at higher RPM, yet even if that was stuck wide open with the ignition off the motor should still spin over under load on the starter I would think?
Current Bikes:

1966 CL77 - Honda 305cc - Dual purpose - "Gentleman's Scrambler" was a period moniker.
1967 CL175K0 - Low production number with #802 engine serial- winter 2019/2020 full restoration.
1972 CB350F - Baby Four with low mileage - Cosmetic refresh to the next level 2021/2022.
1978 CB550K - Very original bike with only 7499 Km. from new - light cleanup and refresh done.
1983 CB1100F - Canadian model - DOHC Supersport in pristine low kilometre condition from new.
1984 GL1200 - Standard model in showroom condition - two owner bike from new.
1984 CX650E - Restored summer 2017 - a rare Eurosport model - excellent one owner bike.
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desertrefugee
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#9

Post by desertrefugee »

After all you've tried, I'd have to agree. Rotten starter. Wouldn't be the first time a replacement component has caused grief.
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#10

Post by Sidecar Bob »

I can't say for 100% sure about mounting a 1000 starter motor on an 1100 but I'm about 99.9% sure it should work. I had the one that came on my "new" 1100 engine on the old 1000 engine for a while and it fit OK so I can't see any reason a 1000 one shouldn't fit a 1100.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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Whiskerfish
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#11

Post by Whiskerfish »

There is something different but I can not recall the specifics. Like the splines for the chain drive gear maybe? So long as you have all the pieces it will work I think.
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
and a whole garage full of possibilities!!

Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
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Sagebrush
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#12

Post by Sagebrush »

I know the 1000 starter is longer than the 1100. That is why you have to remove the exhaust header on the 1000 but not on the 1100.
Dean Spalding
Raleigh, NC

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

'82 Yellow GL1100
'81 Blue GL1100

My Gallery
My 1100 Build Thread
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#13

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Maybe my 1100 engine came with a 1000 starter....
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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flyin900
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Re: New GL1100 starter/turn over issue

#14

Post by flyin900 »

Well I tried a used OEM GL1000 starter and that seems to have solved the problem. There does appear to also be an issue with the short positive wire from the battery to the solenoid, as it isn't passing the current properly either.
So the GL1000 starter will fit a GL1100, although I needed to remove the exhaust stud closest to the block near the mounting point. Since the GL1000 starter is just slightly longer in the rear section too (less than 1/4") it also takes a little wiggling to get it into the space correctly.

I only needed to drop the exhaust header down by removing the 4 mounting bolts at the head and the rear main bracket bolt on the muffler. I was then able to pivot the header downward away from the head enough to have clearance to remove and replace the starter unit.

Tomorrow I will work on getting it running and proceed from there on the refresh if warranted.
Current Bikes:

1966 CL77 - Honda 305cc - Dual purpose - "Gentleman's Scrambler" was a period moniker.
1967 CL175K0 - Low production number with #802 engine serial- winter 2019/2020 full restoration.
1972 CB350F - Baby Four with low mileage - Cosmetic refresh to the next level 2021/2022.
1978 CB550K - Very original bike with only 7499 Km. from new - light cleanup and refresh done.
1983 CB1100F - Canadian model - DOHC Supersport in pristine low kilometre condition from new.
1984 GL1200 - Standard model in showroom condition - two owner bike from new.
1984 CX650E - Restored summer 2017 - a rare Eurosport model - excellent one owner bike.
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