Starter Grinding

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wmpotter399
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Re: Starter Grinding

#31

Post by wmpotter399 »

Sidecar,

You are right. As I just responded to another person, there is a switch on the clutch perch. even in neutral, it will not crank without pulling the clutch lever. exactly how my 86 Shadow was before I jumped it.

1) I brought the starter here to work with me. One of the things we do at my job is manufacturing starters and alternators. Among other diesel engine parts. I had one of the techs disassemble the starter and check it completely. Even under a load. He said that the starter is like brand new.

2) As you mentioned. I can turn the chain one way, but not the other. So I would say that the chain is in tact as well.

3) The PO said... after the fact of course, that he was able to start it with the starter for the first week or so. Then he experienced what we are discussing now. He read a manual and the first step for starter replacement is 'Remove engine from frame". So he was done. It scared him off. I guess it is more the starter "whirring" than it is a grinding.

I am able to "bump" start the bike. Just not something that I want to do all of the time. I am considering ordering a new starter anyway, just to eliminate the possibility. But I did start looking last night. I already have timing belts in the shopping cart. I figure if the engine needs to come out, I am going to get a new stator and clutch while I have the cover off. I did see the replacement brake hoses last night as well. Anything else you would suggest while the engine is coming out?
type1
Sidecar Bob wrote:I thought it was odd that he was disengaging the clutch while trying to start it and meant to mention that you don't need to do that if the transmission is in neutral but by the time I typed out the description of the starter clutch I forgot.

But it doesn't matter in this case. The bolt that you turn the engine over with (and that he was feeling to see if it turned) is the one that holds the alternator rotor onto its shaft. Whether the drivetrain clutch (the one you control with the lever) is engaged or disengaged, it should turn when the starter motor turns IF the starter clutch is engaging.

Thinking about it more overnight, I can think of 3 things that would let the starter motor spin without turning that bolt:
1) Failed gears in the starter motor as mentioned earlier in this thread.
2) Broken starter chain (not likely if the gear that the starter motor shaft engages with can be turned in one direction but not the other).
3) Failed Starter Clutch. When the SC begins to fail it will skip and you will hear the whirring of the starter motor spinning without the SC grabbing, usually followed by the SC eventually grabbing and the engine starting but if you keep trying to start it with the bad starter clutch the rollers will eventually hammer the boss ("inner race" in the drawing Gltriker posted) so much that its originally smooth surface becomes rippled and then you will begin to hear the rollers bouncing around instead of grabbing (trust me on this because I did it to my 650's original engine).

BUT a completely failed SC sounds more like putting a few large nuts in a tin can and shaking them than a grinding noise.... The more I think about it the more broken gears inside the starter motor makes sense.

In either case it would be possible to push start the bike and that is likely what the Previous Owner did. He probably thought it was the SC but decided it was too big a repair for a bike that old so he wanted to unload it fast. Even if you do end up having to open the engine to fix it and end up spending a few hundred more for stuff like tires, brake lines (it looks like it has the original rubber ones that should have been replaced decades ago), timing belts &c you still got a really great deal for $100 :orange :orange :orange
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Re: Starter Grinding

#32

Post by scootsx2 »

- Water pump as long as you have the engine out (but can be easily changed with the engine in).
- Clean the oil screen.
Last edited by scootsx2 on Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starter Grinding

#33

Post by rcmatt007 »

there should be a switch at the clutch, has another switch been added?

back to the grinding.... if it a grind or a whirr?
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Re: Starter Grinding

#34

Post by Sidecar Bob »

What he said ^^^ And yes, the '83's neutral switch is inside the transmission cover (lower front of the engine). Also, check that the wire that comes out of the transmission cover is plugged into the main wiring harness.
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Re: Starter Grinding

#35

Post by rcmatt007 »

when my starter clutch does not engage I will hear a whirr that sort of ends with a ka-thunk. Usually it will engage properly after that. Try putting your hand over the are of the stator and feel what happens there
-Rodger-
all it takes for evil to prosper is the want of a few good men to do nothing-Edmund Burke
The question is not how much time do you have, it is what you do with the time that you have Gandalf
"One of the greatest dignities of humankind is that each successive generation is invested in the welfare of each new generation." Fred Rodgers
"it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert" ancient saying
78 constantly modified/customized since 1978, BOTM June 2015 de-evolving this very moment viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65511
76 Ltd "cookies bike" ALMOST DONE
79 project, finished, FOR SALE
'86 1200 (Beth's)(FOR SALE) with motorvation sidecar (sidecar sold) , July 2017 BOTM
'17 HD Road king and 08 HD Heritage softail (Beth's) (FOR SALE). I guess you can say we have MBS
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Re: Starter Grinding

#36

Post by wmpotter399 »

That is pretty much what it does. not too much of the ka-thunk at the end though. I have tried multiple time to start it. On and off... But I cant get it to catch.
rcmatt007 wrote:when my starter clutch does not engage I will here a whirr that sort of ends with a ka-thunk. Usually it will engage properly after that. Try putting your hand over the are of the stator and feel what happens there
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Re: Starter Grinding

#37

Post by rcmatt007 »

that means that your starter clutch is not engaging. If it continues to not engage the only real option is to open up the back end. Probably some accumulated gunk stopping the rollers from spinning outward and engaging.

If you can get the engine running (e.g. push starting) you might be able to put some MMO in the oil and it will get up there and clean it up. If I were to do that I would have also first changed the oil and added some lighter oil with the MMO.

I do not know what others thing, but GUNK makes a "cleaner" to add right before an oil change that is meant to help clean up stuff (but NOT for really running and engine at speed or load and only for a short time-5 minutes)
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all it takes for evil to prosper is the want of a few good men to do nothing-Edmund Burke
The question is not how much time do you have, it is what you do with the time that you have Gandalf
"One of the greatest dignities of humankind is that each successive generation is invested in the welfare of each new generation." Fred Rodgers
"it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert" ancient saying
78 constantly modified/customized since 1978, BOTM June 2015 de-evolving this very moment viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65511
76 Ltd "cookies bike" ALMOST DONE
79 project, finished, FOR SALE
'86 1200 (Beth's)(FOR SALE) with motorvation sidecar (sidecar sold) , July 2017 BOTM
'17 HD Road king and 08 HD Heritage softail (Beth's) (FOR SALE). I guess you can say we have MBS
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Re: Starter Grinding

#38

Post by chewy999 »

Sounds more like the starter clutch isn't working properly. Maybe the 'pins' are stuck in place and the spring's aren't pushing them out. That means engine out so that you can take the rear cover off.

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Re: Starter Grinding

#39

Post by chewy999 »

Appreciate what rcmatt007 is saying about trying mmo but think it may be best to try to fix it once and for all. Taking the back cover off let's you check other parts as well.
Just my two cents

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Previous Rides,
1980 CB250N Good to learn on
1981 CX500 good mid range tourer, went to Austria on it!
1983 GL1100C Pride and joy, sold when I bought my 1st house, big mistake
1985 GL650 Silverwing another mistake, horrible bike
1986 CBX550 Good commuter
1989 Suzuki GS750 (1976) cheap and cheerful until a dog ran out in front of me on Xmas Eve, 1991
Current bikes
2010 CB1300 back on a bike after 19 years, two divorces, children grown up etc
1980 GL1100 NOW ON THE ROAD, still use CB1300.
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Re: Starter Grinding

#40

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Oops. I didn't notice that there was a 3rd page to the thread. My reply in post #34 refers to what Roger said in post #30.

If the tech where you work says the starter motor is working and you are actually hearing the whirring sound of the starter motor running without the starter clutch engaging there isn't much point in spending money on a new starter motor.

Re the starter override circuit:
Here is the schematic for your the 1983 GL1100 Interstate, which should be the same as your Aspencade:
Image
If you look at the lower right corner you will see the solenoid. Please note that the solenoid's coil is connected to the red/yellow wire and the green/red wire.
- If you trace the red/yellow wire you will see that it goes to the Start button where it connects to the black wire when the button is pressed. The black wire is switched positive - connected to the battery's positive terminal when the key is turned on.
- If you trace the green/red wire you will see that it goes to the Clutch Operated Switch (the one the clutch lever operates) and the other side of that switch is connected to the green wire (ground). If the switch is closed (zero ohms) as it should be when the clutch lever is pulled in the solenoid's coil should be connected through the green wire to the battery's negative negative terminal.
- As you can see from that, when the key is turned on, the clutch lever is pulled in and the Start button is pressed the solenoid's coil should be energized, closing the contacts and allowing current to flow to the starter motor.
- Further tracing of the green/red reveals a connection to a branching green/red (shown directly above the alternator in the drawing) which runs to a Silicone Rectifier (diode). The other end of the diode is connected to another green/red wire that comes from the neutral switch. The Neutral switch's function isn't shown very clearly but when the transmission is in neutral the green/red is connected to ground (the neutral light is connected directly to power and grounds through the switch). This allows current in the green/red from the solenoid to return to ground through the diode and the neutral switch when the transmission is in neutral. The diode is there to prevent the neutral light from lighting when the clutch lever is pulled in.

If your starter motor won't operate with the transmission in neutral without pulling the clutch lever in the diode has probably failed or the wire from the neutral switch has been damaged or unplugged. The diode is a black plastic item approx. 1 cm wide, 1 cm high and 2 cm long. I believe it is located under the shelter on the left side (the "shelter" is the housing over the air cleaner, electrical parts &c that is where the gas tank is no most bikes).
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Re: Starter Grinding

#41

Post by 1983lux »

Sounds like the starter clutch not working to me. If its making some kind of noise, I'm guessing that the starter is spinning but the clutch is just grinding against the shaft without grabbing hard enough to turn it. I saw this a while back, some think its a bad idea drilling a hole in the side of the motor in case metal flakes get in, but might be worth the risk if you're really opposed to taking out the engine: https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopi ... 13&t=12909
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Re: Starter Grinding

#42

Post by 1983lux »

PS if you do go ahead and take out the engine, follow Randakk's instructions for sure: http://www.randakksblog.com/gl1000-star ... haul-tips/

I'd think about changing your clutch cable as it looks really hard to do with the engine in the bike.

Maybe even go all out and buy one of those full engine gasket kits (https://www.randakks.com/200-0004-gl100 ... t-set.html), clean up the engine, paint it. If all the seals are original, you'll end up like me having to take the engine halfway apart in a few months to replace some random dried up old seal after you just had the whole thing out.
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Re: Starter Grinding

#43

Post by scootsx2 »

1983lux wrote:PS if you do go ahead and take out the engine, follow Randakk's instructions for sure: http://www.randakksblog.com/gl1000-star ... haul-tips/

I'd think about changing your clutch cable as it looks really hard to do with the engine in the bike.

Maybe even go all out and buy one of those full engine gasket kits (https://www.randakks.com/200-0004-gl100 ... t-set.html), clean up the engine, paint it. If all the seals are original, you'll end up like me having to take the engine halfway apart in a few months to replace some random dried up old seal after you just had the whole thing out.
It's really easy to go overboard when you're in "while we're at it" mode. Use common sense for your particular situation.
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St. Louis, MO

The dude abides.

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Antique Motorcycle Club of America http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/
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Re: Starter Grinding

#44

Post by Track T 2411 »

scootsx2 wrote:
1983lux wrote:PS if you do go ahead and take out the engine, follow Randakk's instructions for sure: http://www.randakksblog.com/gl1000-star ... haul-tips/

I'd think about changing your clutch cable as it looks really hard to do with the engine in the bike.

Maybe even go all out and buy one of those full engine gasket kits (https://www.randakks.com/200-0004-gl100 ... t-set.html), clean up the engine, paint it. If all the seals are original, you'll end up like me having to take the engine halfway apart in a few months to replace some random dried up old seal after you just had the whole thing out.
It's really easy to go overboard when you're in "while we're at it" mode. Use common sense for your particular situation.
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Re: Starter Grinding

#45

Post by Sidecar Bob »

On the other hand, the bike didn't cost much and if it looks as good in person as in the pic it might be worth investing in. And winter is coming so if you have a warm place to work making sure the rest of the engine is in good shape while it is on the workbench could be a good project....
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
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