Broken Head Bolts

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pjgoeman
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Broken Head Bolts

#1

Post by pjgoeman »

To clean and paint prep the motor on my basket case 78 I removed the valve covers and found three broken head bolts on each side (I have no info on the history of the bike).

So, a couple of questions -
1. What would cause three bolt failures on each side? Overheated, over torqued? I removed the heads and the remaining bolts were very tight, I needed a long breaker bar to get them loose but didn't break any more bolts. The threads on the unbroken bolts were in decent shape, no corrosion or obvious galling.
2. Certainly it will be difficult to get the broken bolts out, they're all flush with or slightly below the surface of the block. I know the usual tricks but anybody have something special?

The heads and piston tops are pretty carboned up but no visual damage or issues. The cylinders still have a nice cross hatch and no ridge so it doesn't look like the motor has a lot of miles on it.

Thanks for your help.
Peter

1978 GL1000
1973 Honda CL175 Scrambler
2018 BMW 1200GSA
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#2

Post by desertrefugee »

Dreaded previous owner (PO). I'd guess they were grossly overtorqued. Good luck with the extractions. Of course, you know at least one will have you hating life...
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#3

Post by DUGG »

The best trick I have is to weld a nut to the broken bolt using a wire feed welder. A lot depends on why the bolts broke. Over torqued and they will come out easy. Seized in it will be more work requiring a torch.
pjgoeman
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#4

Post by pjgoeman »

Got all six out - five were easy and one was tough. I used my Dremel to make a slot to use a screwdriver. The worst one needed a hand held impact driver.

Can head bolts be reused? I won't use any of my unbroken bolts because I think they were over torqued but there are plenty of used ones on eBay, although you don't know their history either. This definitely needs to be a budget build.

Thanks.
Peter

1978 GL1000
1973 Honda CL175 Scrambler
2018 BMW 1200GSA
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flyin900
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#5

Post by flyin900 »

I wouldn't reuse any of the bolts that were still good from that motor in your build again. I have reused bolts that were torqued normally on heads I have done valve jobs/gaskets on etc. I think there is a school of thought that the bolts can be reused and others that will say no. If they are still available from Honda new you are probably going to blow the budget, so replace with a used set and hope for the best.
I personally would thread chase the holes (M12 X 1.25TP I believe) and clean them up really well and lube the new bolt threads/heads when reinstalling per the FSM.
Current Bikes:

1966 CL77 - Honda 305cc - Dual purpose - "Gentleman's Scrambler" was a period moniker.
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1978 CB550K - Very original bike with only 7499 Km. from new - light cleanup and refresh done.
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#6

Post by Track T 2411 »

+1 on the above...
"I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#7

Post by robin1731 »

The head bolts on these engines are not torque to yield. So yes, they can be reused. But as stated above I'm not sure I'd reuse the ones you have.

I do find it hard to imagine someone got them so tight that the bolts broke before stripping the threads. These are pretty big bolts. And the aluminum is much softer. Makes you wonder what else was done by some gorilla. :shock: lolol

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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#8

Post by chewy999 »

Just checked a few sites and it's hard to find new bolts, which I think is a bit odd, so you'll probably have to source a good second hand set. Just hope they haven't been abused like the ones you had.

I thought, (in a perfect world), that you were meant to change the cylinder head bolts as they are designed to 'stretch' when they are torqued up, or did I dream that? :shock:

Last thing, are you meant to fit the bolts dry, or maybe apply a little lube such as copper grease on the threads during fitting. I believe you are advised to clean all the threads, on the bolt and the hole so the bolts torque up evenly.

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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#9

Post by Track T 2411 »

chewy999 wrote:Just checked a few sites and it's hard to find new bolts, which I think is a bit odd, so you'll probably have to source a good second hand set. Just hope they haven't been abused like the ones you had.

I thought, (in a perfect world), that you were meant to change the cylinder head bolts as they are designed to 'stretch' when they are torqued up, or did I dream that? :shock:

Last thing, are you meant to fit the bolts dry, or maybe apply a little lube such as copper grease on the threads during fitting. I believe you are advised to clean all the threads, on the bolt and the hole so the bolts torque up evenly.

anim-cheers1 anim-cheers1 anim-cheers1
All bolts 'stretch' when tightened/torqued to some extent or other. Over - torqued or over- used bolts should be replaced. Cleaning the threads insures proper torque values. Different applications may specify 'wet' (lubricated) or 'dry' values. On our GoldWings, the value is 'wet'. "Torque to yield" bolts are very common in today's engines, and require replacement after a single use. The 'yield' part of the description essentially means 'fatigue' or failure. In other words, the bolt has stretched past its serviceable limit.
"I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

"He that is good with a hammer tends to think everything is a nail" - Abraham Maslow

"If you can't take the time to do it right the first time, how are you ever going to find the time to do it over?" -Unknown

Current Rides:
'Grumpy' - '81 Standard, now fully dressed.
'Layla' - '81 Standard w/dealer installed fairing and Hondaline bags.
'Scarlett' '76 'Survivor' nekkid as a j-bird!

Under Construction:
The 'Jalopy' '78-'79 Mash-up
'Quikie' '81 gl1100I back on the lift, project with the step-son!

In The Shed:
'81 gl1100I barn find aka "Josie, the farmer's daughter." (almost comatose build)
'77 gl1000, roller parts bike.
'82 gl1100I, 'Old Crusty' titled roller parts bike (free!)
'82 gl1100I, My first 'Wing, and an expensive lesson!
New2U Bike? Read Me.
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dontwantapickle
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#10

Post by dontwantapickle »

In all of my years of turning wrenches, I have never seen a goldwing with a broken head bolt.
Not to mention 6 of them on the same bike ! :shock:

(maybe the previous "mechanic" used an impact gun or something ???)

Anyways......
I would call this a huge red flag with this engine, just because.... "if he did this much damage, what else did he do to it"?
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#11

Post by DUGG »

Torque to yield bolts will have an angle torque i.e. 45°90°.And can only be used once because at that point they have been stretched to their service limit. The type of head bolt used on the gold wing can be used over and over as long as there’s no signs of damage. Maybe the PO used the wrong kind of bolt Not the original bolts. We pulled down a CRV had last week and found somebody had used a regular half inch Grade 5 Bolts instead of the proper head bolt. They had gone to the trouble of installing a Helicoil in the block to use the wrong bolt. At that point the block was junk. I would check over every inch of that motor at this point.
pjgoeman
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#12

Post by pjgoeman »

I believe the head bolts are genuine Honda. They have a "T" embossed on the head and have a slightly smaller diameter on the shank of the bolt, both of which are similar to photos that I've seen on eBay adds for used bolts. For what it's worth, the oil and coolant I drained out were both in good condition and turning the motor by hand does not reveal any unusual noises or resistance. The oil strainer was also pretty clean with a very small number of dirt chunks (not metal). The only actual evidence of a ham fisted PO was that the infamous stator disconnect plug had been cut out and the three yellow wires were very poorly joined together with crimped connectors.

This is my first GL so I'm learning my way along although I have been reading this forum extensively for almost two years. At this point I'm going to get a used set of bolts off eBay, a gasket set from Randakk and assume that the motor internals are ok.

Thanks for your help.
Peter

1978 GL1000
1973 Honda CL175 Scrambler
2018 BMW 1200GSA
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5speed
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Re: Broken Head Bolts

#13

Post by 5speed »

I wonder considering Honda's penchant for using parts that fit other vehicles if the GL head bolts are the same as ones used in car engines..
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