78 GL1000 gears won't engage

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Sidecar Bob
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#31

Post by Sidecar Bob »

Good point.
More than once over the years I ran the battery down before getting the bowls full enough for starting. Then I read Randakk's recommendation somewhere in his blog to pre-fill carbs that have been drained or allowed to dry by attaching a funnel to the fuel line and pouring in 180cc of fresh fuel to fill the bowls. It makes a huge difference.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
Shadowjack
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#32

Post by Shadowjack »

I've learned to drain the carbs over the winter, and do that in the spring. Sooo much easier than cranking for 10 minutes.
redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#33

Post by redsrback6 »

Cliff/All,

Tried the open-throttle-with-choke approach which did register 3000 rpm as you said and sounded pretty good as long as I kept cranking but just wouldn't catch. During regular choke start attempts I can hear the starter spinning faster as I continue to crank making me think it's gonna catch but won't.

Ordered a new condenser and swapped it out but unfortunately no change in status. Really hoped this would make a difference. There wasn't any corrosion build-up either when I took the old one off. I didn't add the ground yet, but for certain all connection points condenser to battery housing, housing to frame, and all screws cleaned to be sure.

For the record this bike has always been garage kept and is very clean.

Lastly, the fuel flow... With the petcock off, I disconnected the pump output hose (leaving attached to carbs) and inserted a bit longer hose to drain into a jar. Used a hand towel but not much drained out of the pump or hose. When I turned the petcock to ON or RES there is no pressure but may be expected having to push through the filter IDK. It began to drip, a drop every 9-10 seconds. While cranking, I must admit the flow looks pretty good to me. The flow is wavy if that makes any sense, strong to light similar to pouring gas into your lawnmower if you forgot to remove the vent plug. Smaller stream of course. I cranked 4 or 5 fairly short bursts and got maybe little bit less than a cup. Also, flow to the filter looks fine to me.

Another easy adjustment I haven't done is replace the fuel filter. My current filter is new, but recall my tank went through the renew process where they cut a hole in the bottom, sandblasted it (I think), welded it back, recoated inside and out with a hard material, then applied the liquid that makes the new liner. Also been repainted. Anyway, when I put gas in it for the first time, I drained off a couple gallons as a rinse, giving that to my mower. Yes, I should have rinsed the tank before putting it back in the bike but didn't. Nor did I do a total drain with it on the bike. However, the fuel that I've seen come out of the tank and inside the tank looks completely clean. There was never any indication of dust inside the tank, and I've always kept it sealed. Could've been a bit in the flow tubes but that shoulda came out with what I did. Still a possibility the filter could be slightly clogged if there were any dust particles left in it, even though there appears to be decent flow to me.

I've not done a fuel pump pressure test unless somebody tells me to.

Cylinder pressure will be my next step.
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#34

Post by cfairweather »

I suggest removing the petcock on the tank and remove the float so you can see inside the tank with a flashlight. Run a stiff nylon wire through each tube on the side of the tank and make sure you can see it come out the other side inside the tank. I use weed eater cord and attach a drill to the cord. I have seen these tubes completed plugged with dried gasoline.
redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#35

Post by redsrback6 »

TY Cfair for that tip! I've not done this since filling the tank but did so before. Didn't think to use my drill though but it worked. Fuel flow seems fine from tank to filter, and without checking pressure or measuring pump output it looks to be working. Was a bit surprised there was no gravity push after the filter and pump but perhaps the pump is designed as a stop point when not cranking.

I bought a compression tester, had to rig the 12 and 14mm adapters together and still can't reach the nut to do anything more than very lightly finger tighten by twisting the hose. Per the manual I cranked using choke and fully opened throttle, #1 was around 142 psi the other 3 were between 145-150. Seems low compared to the stated normal 171 but if I read correctly 142 seems to be a lower limit, and if I could tighten a bit more may be a little higher. The bike has 65,000 miles and the piston heads do have carbon buildup but removing the heads would be a last resort for me. Admittingly, I created a wet environment when I chose to lubricate the cylinders so do wonder what affect that might have, even though was months ago now.
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gltriker
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#36

Post by gltriker »

:-D Progress tumb2
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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kerryb
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#37

Post by kerryb »

This post reminds me so much of my 76 cb550f. I spent 2 weeks trying to start it after working on the ignition advancer springs. Apparently I put it back together 180 degrees out of time, so even though there was gas, spark, and compression, the best it would do is backfire once in a while. Sounds like yours doesn't it?
Is there a way you can trace the path from the igniters to the coils, to the plugs to be sure the spark is going to the right cylinder? I just had to swap the yellow and blue wires to make mine work, (I was thrilled!)
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.
'78 cb750K, '83 GL1100s,I,&A,'08FXSTC, '79 WilMac trike
redglbx
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#38

Post by redglbx »

Redserback, your compression is fine, my 76 from new always checked around 135-145psi , but I’ll add that the 78/79’s generally check closer to that factory stated 171psi, check with the throttles full open and the choke off. Kerry’s suggestion above is a good one and you can check you phasing by taking cyl #1 spark plug out and bump it until it has compression and shows the TDC through the timing hole. You should have a spark on number 1. Do you have points or electronic setup ? The rotor should be pointing at your 1-2 pickup, points set at this point. Now check that the blue & yellow wires by the battery box are plugged into their proper pairs. Have you checked that you ballast resistor by the coils is good ?

On the draining the carbs thing, on my bikes if I know they are going to set for any length of time I “pickle” them by adding Stabil, Lucas fuel cleaner and Marvel mystery oil (full tank) and make sure it is run through the carbs, then shut the petcock off and run the carbs dry even using the choke to get as much fuel as possible out of them and then just leave them with the choke on until I’m ready to start them again.

At that time I loosen the gas cap and turn the petcock on and let it set 10-15 min’s to fill the bowls and then it usually takes very little cranking to get it started, been doing this fora very long time with good success. The only exception is if your bike has a vacuum petcock which presents problems of its own.

Hope that my random rambling may help.
Red 1976 oe owner
1976 LTD restored
1980 CBX , in the que, to fix the ignorant heavy handed owner
1981 CBX
1977 CB750 K7
2014 FJR OE owner, sold
1980 GL1100
1984 GL1200 naked
1969 CL350, in the que
redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#39

Post by redsrback6 »

Kerry... I can almost feel your thrill after swapping the blue and yellow wires! As far as the wiring goes, the blues are all together and the yellows are together. The points wires and the condenser wires also have color coded bands on them which match as well.

Not checked the ballast alone but have done both end-to-end wire tests and am in range.

I went ahead and checked all the fuses and all look fine, including the main though I didn't take it out.

Over the weekend I tried to feed more gas into the carbs using a syringe as a funnel and gravity but, I believe they were already full. Most of the gas just leaked out of the hose and barbed Luer fitting, which wasn't tight, but I had the hose pointed upward and tried 4 times so it should have got extra gas if it needed it. Unfortunately, this didn't seem to help.

I also went ahead and installed a new fuel pump over the weekend, since I had one. No help either.

Cliff wants me to do some continuity tests which I haven't yet but plan to.

Sure do appreciate all the help from you guys!
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gltriker
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#40

Post by gltriker »

Yes, sounds like ignition.
What I want you to check, Boyce, is for positive voltage at the double socket terminals under the rubber umbrella.
Unplug both primary leads from their respective double socket terminal. Turn on the Key switch and the right handlebar RUN engine control switch.
If the voltmeter discovers approximately 1 volt dc drop from the bike's measured battery voltage at both double socket terminals, that's good. Tells us the ignition coils' primary wiring circuits, 'down' to that measuring point, are functioning correctly .

You mentioned the ballast resistor may have been jostled by the air filter housing 'snorkel' at some point during the remove/reinstall of the carburetors.

If no potential is found at both double socket terminal test points, jumper the leads on the ballast resistor.
Then. Check for positive voltage at both double socket terminals, again.
Last edited by gltriker on Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#41

Post by redsrback6 »

All,

Thanks to Cliff I think we figured this out. He had me unplug the points and condenser to check how much voltage was making it to each dual molex socket, under the umbrellas he calls it. Battery was 12.87, sockets were only 2.36 volts each. Always knew this bike had some sort of coil in front of the original right coil but just assumed it was a legit part of the bike, although I thought it was odd to be so close to the breather box "snorkel", he calls it. Also, I couldn't find anywhere in the Honda specs.

Long story short we think PO bypassed the original ballast resistor and soldered in a replacement. The front edge of the snorkel was touching the exposed wire at solder point. As a quick test I loosened the breather box bolts enough to slide a piece of heat shrink between the wire and snorkel, volts jumped up to 10.76 on both! Original ballast resister is still there as well.

I must have hit it working the breather box back into the shelter. Who knows it could also be a matter of how tight (or loose) I had the bolts. I need to figure out what I want to do to keep them from touching to hopefully get back on track. Down the road will take a closer look at what the PO did and possibly replace the original if it needs it.

Will provide an update once I get it started, soon.

Thank You Cliff, and to everyone who has offered me their expert advice. Every bit helped.
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gltriker
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#42

Post by gltriker »

redsrback6 wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:12 pm snipped-
Long story short we think PO bypassed the original ballast resistor and soldered in a replacement. The front edge of the snorkel was touching the exposed wire at solder point. As a quick test I loosened the breather box bolts enough to slide a piece of heat shrink between the wire and snorkel, volts jumped up to 10.76 on both! Original ballast resister is still there as well.
Thank You to everyone who has offered me their expert advice. Every bit helped.
.
.just one of the MANY Things a Previous Owner does that makes you go hmmmm ?? :-?
.
IMG_0826.jpg
IMG_0826.jpg (75.82 KiB) Viewed 358 times
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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Sidecar Bob
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#43

Post by Sidecar Bob »

All I'll say is I hope if someone else eventually ends up with my winter machine they'll be kind to me when they talk about the changes I've made over the years ;)
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
redsrback6
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#44

Post by redsrback6 »

Agree Bob. It works that's all I know. It is fairly tight but as it turns out I believe there was a bit more room where they should not have been touching. I ended up using my Dremel to grind down the right edge of the snorkel about 1/8 inch then I coated the same part of the tip with some Permatex liquid wire wrap. I was extra careful mounting it, making sure each bolt tightened the same and kept it light. Now I'd say there's 5/16 inch between them. Perhaps the previous mount was too tight or tilted, even though it looked fine sitting atop the carbs.

Got everything back together, it started the first crank! I haven't put it on the road yet, but it ran flawlessly for more than 5 mins before I turned it off. Never doubted the carburetor rebuild job that Robin1731 did for me but so happy to add this confirmation of his work. Always knew it had to be something on my end!

Next is to get this bike on the road and hopefully shift through all the gears.

Thanks again to Rob and Cliff for hanging in there with me, but I meant what I said... every bit of advice, all the suggestions, experiences, every bit helped me.
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gltriker
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Re: 78 GL1000 gears won't engage

#45

Post by gltriker »

redsrback6 wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:15 pm

snip- Next is to get this bike on the road and hopefully shift through all the gears.

got_gears_postcard-rba5a9caaa43b4a2f8ab025d059cd75e7_vgbaq_8byvr_324.jpg
got_gears_postcard-rba5a9caaa43b4a2f8ab025d059cd75e7_vgbaq_8byvr_324.jpg (5.93 KiB) Viewed 302 times
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
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