Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
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- WingMan71
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Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Subject line asks the question:
What exactly defines a "cafe racer" and what exactly defines a "bobber"?
What are the distinguishing and special features of each?
Are there similarities between the two marques, or are they completely disparate?
***
What exactly defines a "cafe racer" and what exactly defines a "bobber"?
What are the distinguishing and special features of each?
Are there similarities between the two marques, or are they completely disparate?
***
1983 GL650 Silver Wing Interstate
2006 Gold Wing GL1800 CSC Trike
1982 CB750 Custom
1976 Gold Wing GL1000 LTD - SOLD
1987 Gold Wing GL1200A Aspencade - SOLD
U.S. Navy SWO 1967-1976
2006 Gold Wing GL1800 CSC Trike
1982 CB750 Custom
1976 Gold Wing GL1000 LTD - SOLD
1987 Gold Wing GL1200A Aspencade - SOLD
U.S. Navy SWO 1967-1976
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Certainly not an expert but a bobber is a stripped minimalist bike. Rear fender "Bobbed" front fender often removed, no bags or fairing with an upright riding position. A Cafe typically has a small fairing and rear set controls with a lean forward riding position.
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1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
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Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
"Yea I do dance awkwardly, and I am having more fun than you" Taylor Swift
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1984 GL1200 Standard
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
- desertrefugee
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Bingo. (And “marque” generally denotes a manufacturer rather than a style).
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Now, I was under the impression that engine modification/improvement was a hallmark of the first "textbook definition" cafe racers? If not through engine mods, than engine swaps from other bikes? And each chanage made was to improve performace in some way?
Whereas bobbers main goal was to strip as much excess "stuff" off as possible.
BUT I could be very wrong, so don't take my word for it.
Whereas bobbers main goal was to strip as much excess "stuff" off as possible.
BUT I could be very wrong, so don't take my word for it.
1997 Valkyrie- Light Cutomization, but Too Busy Riding
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete
All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
1980 KZ1300- Bike's Haunted
1976 GL1000 (Yellow)- It Runs (Poorly) and Doesn't Leak (Mostly)
1974 Velosolex 3800- Better Than Walking
1972 CB750- Broke the Chain And Ate the Motor
1969 CT90- The Most Fun You Can Have on 90ccs.
1965 CA77 Dream- Needs a Full Teardown, but Complete
All advice I give is only valid until an expert corrects me.
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
the term "café " came from a movement in England. The "ACE" café was a meeting point for a group of riders who raced from café to café, and around London streets on small bikes that were modified with clip on bars, and set back foot pegs, to allow the rider to maintain a low profile to help increase speed. They were known as "café racers". That's the short version
1978 custom GL1000
1977 custom with 1200 engine
1985 gl1200
1977 custom with 1200 engine
1985 gl1200
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Did not know that. Very cool!!CYBORG wrote:the term "café " came from a movement in England. The "ACE" café was a meeting point for a group of riders who raced from café to café, and around London streets on small bikes that were modified with clip on bars, and set back foot pegs, to allow the rider to maintain a low profile to help increase speed. They were known as "café racers". That's the short version
"Agreement is not a requirement for Respect" CDR Michael Smith USN (Ret) 2017
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
"Yea I do dance awkwardly, and I am having more fun than you" Taylor Swift
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1984 GL1200 Standard
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
"The book is wrong, this whole Conclusion is Fallacious" River Tam
"Yea I do dance awkwardly, and I am having more fun than you" Taylor Swift
2008 GL1800 IIIA "TH3DOG"
1984 GL1200 Standard
1975/6/7/8/9 Arthur Fulmer Dressed Road bike
1975 Naked Noisy and Nasty in town bike
Psst. oh and by the way CHANGE YOUR BELTS!!!!
- desertrefugee
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
And many of those old rascals still do it! Of course, now they're joined by legions of younger riders. Ace Cafe is a very popular biking meeting place.
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- JamesPal
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Cafe Racer is a bike used for cafe racing. Correct, cafe racing started in the UK back in the 60s. The idea was to put a Shilling in the jukebox, run out to an agreed to place and get back before the song ran out. Of course this turned into a contest of who had the fastest bike. In those days most British bikes were smaller capacity transportation bikes. There were the 'big' British bikes, mostly 500 to 650cc. All of the major manufacturers had bikes in this size.
Since cafe racing is about going fast, clip on handle bars, alloy tanks & seats along with engine modifications with dual carburetors open exhausts were popular. Triumph was known for the most responsive engine for tuning and Norton was known for the best handling frames. This led to specials being built such as the Triton. This was a combination of the Triumph 500-650 engine being fitted into the Norton Featherbed frame using the Norton Roadholder forks. These bikes are the classic Cafe Racer.
Bobbers originated at the end of WW2 in Southern CA. GIs returning home were looking for excitement and motorcycling provided the outlet. There were a bunch of surplus Harleys around. To lighten these bikes and to make them more personal people would bob (or chop) fenders and other unneeded things off the bikes.
So when I think cafe racer, small trim light fast bikes. Bobber means 16 inch wheels, vee twins and patina. Just my 2¢
Since cafe racing is about going fast, clip on handle bars, alloy tanks & seats along with engine modifications with dual carburetors open exhausts were popular. Triumph was known for the most responsive engine for tuning and Norton was known for the best handling frames. This led to specials being built such as the Triton. This was a combination of the Triumph 500-650 engine being fitted into the Norton Featherbed frame using the Norton Roadholder forks. These bikes are the classic Cafe Racer.
Bobbers originated at the end of WW2 in Southern CA. GIs returning home were looking for excitement and motorcycling provided the outlet. There were a bunch of surplus Harleys around. To lighten these bikes and to make them more personal people would bob (or chop) fenders and other unneeded things off the bikes.
So when I think cafe racer, small trim light fast bikes. Bobber means 16 inch wheels, vee twins and patina. Just my 2¢
"If everything is under control you are not going fast enough" - Mairo Andretti
'85 GL1200I
'81 GL1100 STD
'72 CB450
'85 GL1200I
'81 GL1100 STD
'72 CB450
- Sidecar Bob
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Yep. What he said ^^^^
I posted this on another forum a couple of years ago but it bears repeating here:
A few often forgotten facts related to custom bikes:
Why Harleys became the bike of choice for customizers
After WWII there were a lot of war surplus Harleys available really cheap. I you wanted to make some radical change (like cutting the frame to try to improve the handling) you did it to a Harley because if you messed it up you could get another cheap Harley and start over. Since people who were customizing Harleys wanted specialty parts that would fit them an aftermarket industry making "custom" Harley parts grew up and they became the easiest bikes for "bolt on customizing".
Why custom bikes have long forks and high handlebars
Until the '50s the front end geometry of most motorcycles had relatively low trail which resulted in handling that was less than ideal at higher speeds. Those guys who were cutting up and customizing Harleys soon realized that if they tilted the steering head back and installed longer forks they could increase the trail without raising the front end and make them more stable at speed. This is "form follows function" design. People with little understanding of engineering or design thought that if some was good more must be better so they started adding longer and longer forks until it became a fashion statement and they made a lot of un-rideable machines that people drooled over because their ridiculously long forks were "so cool".
High "ape hanger" handlebars came about the same way. People who knew what they were doing understood that you could control a bike better and be more comfortable if the handlebars were at a little below chest height so they put higher bars on than the original very low ones. The same people who went nuts with fork lengths put on higher and higher bars until they were so high you looked like an ape with your arms hanging from them.
Why they are called "choppers"
Machines made for the war had a lot of extra equipment and were based on models designed for the unpaved roads prevalent before the war so they had wide, long fenders. Everyone knows that it isn't the horsepower alone that makes a vehicle faster, but the horsepower to weight ratio. You could only go so far to increase the horsepower of a flathead or pushrod engine without seriously affecting reliability so after you had done all you could with the engine you started reducing the weight. Hot rodders, for example, removed the heavy fenders from the old cars they were working with and substituted much lighter "cycle" fenders. Bike guys not only removed the military equipment they didn't need (who needs a rifle scabbard on a street bike?) but also "chopped" the brackets for that equipment off. They put on smaller, lighter seats and narrower fenders, anything to shed weight.
And they did indeed turn bikes designed in the '30s into custom machines capable of keeping up with traffic on the ever increasing number of paved highways in the '50s & '60s.
Unfortunately, the exaggerated customs became what people associated with the term "Chopper" and that was a sort of evolutionary dead end because there was only so much you could do without becoming just plain stupid.
Also unfortunately, the "cafe racer movement" seems to have lost its way in the same manner as the chopper crowd did. they seem to have forgotten that cafe racers were not modified to look a certain way but rather looked that way because they were modified for valid reasons. If you set about to emulate the look without understanding the reasons for the original modifications you will end up with a Poodle Bike just as surely as if you built a raked & slammed monstrosity with ape hangers and a 5' sissy bar. (Poodles were originally bread as hunting dogs, a noble and useful job for a canine, but when the fashion crowd realized that their woolly hair could be grown out and cut into ridiculous styles the breed were turned into something completely useless.)
I highly recommend that anyone who wants to build a custom bike of any sort should start by actually using the bike daily for a while so that they can figure out what needs to be improved to make it do what they want it to do. Long highway trips? Maybe you need a softer seat, a big windshield (or maybe a fairing) and highway pegs. Cruising the strip? Good, compliant suspension for those potholes, a bit of tuning for green light takeoffs and maybe some paint that makes it look fast at around town speeds. Canyon carving (including "urban canyons")? Low bars and rearsets so you can tuck in out of the wind and a small windshield for streamlining, again some tuning for speed and then lighten everything that won't affect strength.
BUT before you start changing anything do a lot of reading (much easier these days with the internet) and figure out what you actually need to do to accomplish your goals. And check & test things at every stage. If you make a dozen changes between trials you may not be able to figure out where your mistake was without undoing them all.
AND for heaven's sake remember that you should never change anything that can effect how the bike works for purely cosmetic reasons. That never works out well. People who understand why a bike must look the way it does will laugh at you. People who don't understand won't laugh but they won't think it looks quite right either.
I posted this on another forum a couple of years ago but it bears repeating here:
A few often forgotten facts related to custom bikes:
Why Harleys became the bike of choice for customizers
After WWII there were a lot of war surplus Harleys available really cheap. I you wanted to make some radical change (like cutting the frame to try to improve the handling) you did it to a Harley because if you messed it up you could get another cheap Harley and start over. Since people who were customizing Harleys wanted specialty parts that would fit them an aftermarket industry making "custom" Harley parts grew up and they became the easiest bikes for "bolt on customizing".
Why custom bikes have long forks and high handlebars
Until the '50s the front end geometry of most motorcycles had relatively low trail which resulted in handling that was less than ideal at higher speeds. Those guys who were cutting up and customizing Harleys soon realized that if they tilted the steering head back and installed longer forks they could increase the trail without raising the front end and make them more stable at speed. This is "form follows function" design. People with little understanding of engineering or design thought that if some was good more must be better so they started adding longer and longer forks until it became a fashion statement and they made a lot of un-rideable machines that people drooled over because their ridiculously long forks were "so cool".
High "ape hanger" handlebars came about the same way. People who knew what they were doing understood that you could control a bike better and be more comfortable if the handlebars were at a little below chest height so they put higher bars on than the original very low ones. The same people who went nuts with fork lengths put on higher and higher bars until they were so high you looked like an ape with your arms hanging from them.
Why they are called "choppers"
Machines made for the war had a lot of extra equipment and were based on models designed for the unpaved roads prevalent before the war so they had wide, long fenders. Everyone knows that it isn't the horsepower alone that makes a vehicle faster, but the horsepower to weight ratio. You could only go so far to increase the horsepower of a flathead or pushrod engine without seriously affecting reliability so after you had done all you could with the engine you started reducing the weight. Hot rodders, for example, removed the heavy fenders from the old cars they were working with and substituted much lighter "cycle" fenders. Bike guys not only removed the military equipment they didn't need (who needs a rifle scabbard on a street bike?) but also "chopped" the brackets for that equipment off. They put on smaller, lighter seats and narrower fenders, anything to shed weight.
And they did indeed turn bikes designed in the '30s into custom machines capable of keeping up with traffic on the ever increasing number of paved highways in the '50s & '60s.
Unfortunately, the exaggerated customs became what people associated with the term "Chopper" and that was a sort of evolutionary dead end because there was only so much you could do without becoming just plain stupid.
Also unfortunately, the "cafe racer movement" seems to have lost its way in the same manner as the chopper crowd did. they seem to have forgotten that cafe racers were not modified to look a certain way but rather looked that way because they were modified for valid reasons. If you set about to emulate the look without understanding the reasons for the original modifications you will end up with a Poodle Bike just as surely as if you built a raked & slammed monstrosity with ape hangers and a 5' sissy bar. (Poodles were originally bread as hunting dogs, a noble and useful job for a canine, but when the fashion crowd realized that their woolly hair could be grown out and cut into ridiculous styles the breed were turned into something completely useless.)
I highly recommend that anyone who wants to build a custom bike of any sort should start by actually using the bike daily for a while so that they can figure out what needs to be improved to make it do what they want it to do. Long highway trips? Maybe you need a softer seat, a big windshield (or maybe a fairing) and highway pegs. Cruising the strip? Good, compliant suspension for those potholes, a bit of tuning for green light takeoffs and maybe some paint that makes it look fast at around town speeds. Canyon carving (including "urban canyons")? Low bars and rearsets so you can tuck in out of the wind and a small windshield for streamlining, again some tuning for speed and then lighten everything that won't affect strength.
BUT before you start changing anything do a lot of reading (much easier these days with the internet) and figure out what you actually need to do to accomplish your goals. And check & test things at every stage. If you make a dozen changes between trials you may not be able to figure out where your mistake was without undoing them all.
AND for heaven's sake remember that you should never change anything that can effect how the bike works for purely cosmetic reasons. That never works out well. People who understand why a bike must look the way it does will laugh at you. People who don't understand won't laugh but they won't think it looks quite right either.
Last edited by Sidecar Bob on Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
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Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
- scootsx2
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
An excellent read.Sidecar Bob wrote:Yep. What he said ^^^^
I posted this on another forum a couple of years ago but it bears repeating here:
... text deleted for brevity
1975 GL1000 Sidecar Outfit
1982 CX500-based Trident ex-Police Trike
2001 GL1800 MotorTrike
2006 Vespa LX150
1956 Francis-Barnett Falcon 74
195x Solex 1700
196x Solex 2200
St. Louis, MO
The dude abides.
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Antique Motorcycle Club of America http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/
Vintage Motor Cycle Club http://www.vmcc.net
British Motorcycle Charitable Trust http://www.bmct.org/
VeloSolex Club UK http://www.velosolexclubuk.com/
1982 CX500-based Trident ex-Police Trike
2001 GL1800 MotorTrike
2006 Vespa LX150
1956 Francis-Barnett Falcon 74
195x Solex 1700
196x Solex 2200
St. Louis, MO
The dude abides.
Brothers of the Third Wheel - Gateway Chapter http://www.btw-trikers.org
Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club http://www.vjmc.org
Francis-Barnett Owners Club http://www.francis-barnett.co.uk/
Antique Motorcycle Club of America http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/
Vintage Motor Cycle Club http://www.vmcc.net
British Motorcycle Charitable Trust http://www.bmct.org/
VeloSolex Club UK http://www.velosolexclubuk.com/
- Sidecar Bob
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Thanks.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
- gltriker
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Ummmmmm Sidecar Bob said- You could only go so far to increase the horsepower of a flathead pushrod engine.
What is a flathead pushrod engine?
What is a flathead pushrod engine?
Cliff (74yrs )
Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday.
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RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
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Cliff
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October,2017 BOTM https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome
previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
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Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday.
New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^
RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT Me Too!!
Cliff
'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome
previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
- CYBORG
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Good question.gltriker wrote:Ummmmmm Sidecar Bob said- You could only go so far to increase the horsepower of a flathead pushrod engine.
What is a flathead pushrod engine?
1978 custom GL1000
1977 custom with 1200 engine
1985 gl1200
1977 custom with 1200 engine
1985 gl1200
- Sidecar Bob
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
Oops. Should read "flathead or pushrod". Corrected now.
Mr. Honda ('83 GL1100/Dnepr) summer How a motorcycle evolves thread
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
The Famous Eccles ('84 CX650EI/VeloUral) winter Never Ending Build (CX500forum)
Click: Colour schematics for all GL1000 & GL1100 and GL1200 standard models plus instructions on how to download the full size version
"A guy with two sidecars can't be all bad." - Cookie
Another guy with two sidecars..... Hmmmm... must be something to that....
- desertrefugee
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Re: Cafe Racer or Bobber. What defines the Marque?
I kinda like my "Poodle Bike".
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