Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

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wingrider
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#31

Post by wingrider »

If you keep your eyes open, you should find an entire bike for less than $500. I paid $400 for the bike I pulled my engine out of. Then you get the fun of parting something out!
2002 1800 Wing
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#32

Post by Jeckylll »

I was thinking about starting a new thread but thought I would jump on this one first.

looking at wingriders build he put the 77 heads on a 84 motor.

I have a 76 gl1000 and a 94 1200 motor.

The questions is ignition aside (I can sort that out) will the 76 heads bolt on? Is there clearance issues internally that I need to check or has this been sorted in other builds? finally are there any gasket, cooling issues, oil channel issues that need to be address bolting on the 76 heads and cam?

Thanks in advance I have been lurking for a few years and this has been a helpfull site.
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#33

Post by wingrider »

Jeckyll, the heads will bolt on like the stock ones, but you do need to do a little work to the pistons. The intake valve wants to hit in this mod, so making the relief deeper is what you want to do. Use the 1200 headgasket, and the coolant tubes from the 1200, as the block is about a 1/4” wider.

As also mentioned in other threads, you need to have the output shaft from the 1000 to match up your swing arm.
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#34

Post by ericheath »

I used 1000 coolant tubes. The difference must be in the head, unless I just didn’t notice the gap. I will go check.
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77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#35

Post by wingrider »

You know, I only used the 1200 ones because I plan on selling the 1000, so perhaps there is no difference in the tubing.
2002 1800 Wing
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1978 1200 EFI Wing with Motorvation Coupe Royale sidecar
1977 1200 Wing cafe/bobber project
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#36

Post by Jeckylll »

Check on the output shaft. I have both motors so not a problem.

Coolant tubes have both so I will measure.

Any idea how much Deeper the reliefs on the intake valves need to be?

Exhaust clearance good then?
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#37

Post by ericheath »

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41192&start=15

Post 23 covers it. Exhaust is the same size on the 1000 and 1200’s and despite minor cam differences it clears without modifications. It’s really just the 1mm more radius of the 1000 intake valve. 0.100” would be plenty.

Not sure if it’s in the above cited build but I went to thinner head gaskets and shaved the head 0.030” and ended up touching the pistons to the heads.

The 1200 has its pistons come up above the height of the deck(block.) If you bolt the 1000 heads on without a 1200 gasket the motor will not turn over. The pistons will contact the metal ring of the head gasket. There are probably a dozen or more of these running around now and with 0.040” (stock) 1200 gaskets, they aren’t a problem.
D601A9B7-98DA-4D24-951F-22CFE94F2F20.jpeg
D601A9B7-98DA-4D24-951F-22CFE94F2F20.jpeg (150.62 KiB) Viewed 231 times
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#38

Post by Jeckylll »

So is it the diameter of the intake valve or the travel (need to cut the whole valve area deeper into the piston)? or both?

Thanks I have the 1200 gaskets already en-route.
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#39

Post by wingrider »

I believe I posted pictures of the reliefs in my build....will have to check...

Ok, buried about half way through my thread you will find these pictures and info about the amount taken off.
2002 1800 Wing
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#40

Post by ericheath »

Here’s mine:
61EE2B1E-174A-4CB9-A0D3-DB9CD4B3BFEE.jpeg
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Superskypilot @ Steve Saunders used a sacrificial valve and silver soldered a cutter to it. His ended up more than mine because the cutter was flat. The intake valve is dished. Double faced tape and abrasive paper follows the dish contour. I don’t remember if he took more off on his after this pic. The tape is a good idea. I used a roll of foam the last time.
28227064-6DD6-4C27-BFD6-A212E0A09C38.jpeg
28227064-6DD6-4C27-BFD6-A212E0A09C38.jpeg (158.39 KiB) Viewed 217 times
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#41

Post by ericheath »

Here’s a pic of where the valve hits without notching. The light color on the edge of the valve has its carbon removed. It isn’t much, but it won’t take much to bend it.
19FA1A4D-77E4-4241-82FE-C38208859484.jpeg
19FA1A4D-77E4-4241-82FE-C38208859484.jpeg (89.13 KiB) Viewed 213 times
The question of compression usually comes up next. Superskypilot figures 0.010” gave him 9.5:1. My measurements were not as convincing. But his measurements and mine concluded the chambers, though different, are pretty close to the same. 1200’s are designed for the 1200 dome. The 1000 dome is considerably different.

Next question is the comparison to stock 1200 heads/cams. 1200’s had a little less duration (230 to 235) and a little less lift but double the overlap(20 to 10). 1000’s are solid lifters and should/will hold as high rpm on a 1200. I pull 9500 often. Under intense heat, I could end up with problems with the 0.030” shaved as it was smacking with a 0.030” head gasket. I hacked a little off the outer edges of my pistons when I installed an 0.040” head gasket back in, so I’m probably safe.

One item I have waiting to experiment with is a 1200 cam in the 1000 head. (It will drop right in but needs a different ignition source, tach and fuel pump.) Mine has that, so hopefully this spring it gets done. This will give up the lift but should handle higher revs and thus higher horsepower.

Next question might be if notching the pistons is necessary with the lower lift 1200 cams in a 1000 head. I think the above picture clarifies that.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#42

Post by Jeckylll »

I appreciate your patient and well thoughtout and detailed responces.

I am sure I will have a few more questions after I get into the bike once all the parts get here.

Thx
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#43

Post by Easter »

Eric, I too am still thinking of a 1200 frankenstein with the parts I have on hand. Just to be clear, in the photo above (post 41) is that the 1000 head and are you saying that with the lower lift of 1200 cams, it would not be necessary to modify the pistons? (so long as we use 1200 head gaskets)
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#44

Post by ericheath »

With the 1000 valve being larger, the pic shows it hits right on the edge. My guess is even with 1200 cams it would hit but I never tried it. And if it didn’t hit, IMO, it would be close enough to affect filling.

I was messing around with the 1200 cams today. They look like they would fit fine, however, I’m not sure how you would seal the rear of the right cam where the tach/fuel pump is now. I’m assuming another seal will fit there because the heads can be swapped side-to-side and on the left side it takes the seal. I could put one on my block with the bent rod and spin it and see tomorrow if it warms up a bit.

I want to try a set of 84-85 cams to see if the additional overlap is noticeable. People who know more than me say I won’t be able to tell the difference.

The other option if you have the tools is to sink the valve seats deeper. To my knowledge, no one has done that yet. If your seats were iffy, that’s a possibility.
Whatever I suggest here should be given ample time for a moderator to delicately correct. I apologize in advance.
77 WING, 1200 engine with 77 heads, cams, gl1100 foot pegs, Magna V65 front end, 764A carbs, [-gone Suzuki M109 monoshock--, replaced with gl1100 shocks] gl 1200 swing arm, gl1500 final drive, wheel and rear brakes Valkyrie seat, Meanstreak tank, Sportster pipes, Power Arc ignition off crank.
77 Wing. black
83 Wing, in pieces
"Continuing education is important even if the subject matter is fairly useless (as in this case)."---Greg Foresi
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Re: Building 1100/1200 block, 1000 head engine

#45

Post by Jeckylll »

so i grabbed a junk 1000 head off ebay with valves so I don't risk messing up my originals with the modification process. Quick question. can I use that head for alignment of the cutter valve for both sides? Or do i need a right head for the right pistons and a left head for the left pistons?
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