1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#46

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Still waiting on the Speeduino out of Israel, it will get here. Received the logic analyzer, rather a small unit, but looking forward to using it and see what it gives me. Picked up a small tach-dwell meter yesterday with a timing light included for $25.00. It has a 6 and 8 cylinder button on the unit, but for four cylinder engines you apparently double the 8 cylinder reading. Playing with this will have to wait until after I get back from our motorcycle trip to the Yukon/Alaska, leaving this coming Monday, 24 June. Will be getting my father's tach-dwell meter when I visit Mom at Xmas, good old Snap-On unit. - good to have a comparable if you can.

Working on Part 3 of my musings, be on the pinout comparison and what I have gleaned off the various threads regarding pin selection. Part 4 will be on acronyms. Keeping track of these as I progress.

More to follow. Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#47

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Been a while since I posted here. Took some time off this project to prepare the bike and go on a 3 week trip to Dawson City and back on the 1500. Great trip, always good to get home. Scratch another off the bucket list.

Came home to a pleasant surprise, the Speeduino unit had come in. Nice little unit, main board fully assembled with the Arduino 2560 attached. It's interesting to see the size difference between the OEM ECU and this unit, and that this Speeduino can achieve the same functionality as the older OEM ECU.

Have to review my notes and posts to refresh the memory as to where I was. Still have some investigative work to do to get the various component specs for the setup.

More to follow. Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#48

Post by Tranberg »

This is a Cliffhanger
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#49

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Last update was a while ago. Keeping these older GWs alive and kicking is a task unto itself. I have thought about this and these older GWs are prone to the "Cuban" connection. Looks like a GW on the surface, but has some Honda/Dodge car parts under the hood as well as other components from a variety of sources.

Finishing up the '85 engine rebuild and paint project - brought these two items forward to keep me busy during C-19. Installing the front fairing today, and mother nature cooperating should be road testing next week - engine starts well and shifts. I mention shifting because initially it would not. Took engine out and apart, reviewed the OEM and aftermarket service manuals, and looked at all pictures for a visual indication. Could find nothing out of the ordinary. Put it back together and at every stage checked the shifting. Put engine back in and it up and down shifted no problem. Alignment, how you held your tongue, or whatever, don't know. Really isn't a lot to go wrong.

Short term projects on the books is to look at a carb rebuild for the 1500 - has that unburnt carbon smell, and getting back to my quest to get the ECU project back on the rails. Will be reviewing the documentation I have on hand. Now that I have the engine done, and the bike has a fresh coat of paint, need to keep it going.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#50

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Resurrecting my thread over on the Classic Gold Wings forum: https://classicgoldwings.com/threads/19 ... ade.13534/

Going to do my work journal over on this thread. Time has a good way of clearing/focusing a person's thoughts. I realize from my renewed reading, that I am just replacing an older ECU with a newer one. This does, or should not, require any wiring or component changes. There will be some reduction in the components used such as the cam sensors - have two, only one required. A new trigger wheel, thinking 16/24 tooth, no need for the missing tooth aspect because of the cam sensor.

I do lose a bit of functionality. The OEM ECU diagnostic program, as well as the dash indicator light.

Enough on here. Come visit.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#51

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Part 1 for sake of a better term is mentioned in the above post. Started Part 2: https://classicgoldwings.com/threads/19 ... t-2.14950/
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#52

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Looking for info from the EFI experts on this forum - where in the world is Socrace - remember Carmen San Diego?

Using a Speeduino for this project as mentioned in the thread.

Question is regarding a 36-1 trigger wheel, and cam sensor. Was a VR or Hall sensor used in conjunction with this? Did the 36-1 trigger wheel work as expected? The cam sensor is not required because of the missing tooth; however, for sequential injection, the cam sensor is required.

Next question, with sequential operation, are four coils and spark igniters required? COP units on my '85 Limited Edition are probably not in the cards because of space limitations, and CFI covers.

I understand 4 coils would be beneficial, would not have to fire a two coil system as often, coils would have along charging period using four coils. Two spark units should be able to be used, just fired more often by the ECU - connect the spark igniter to two ignition channels?

The Speeduino that I am going to configure and use has 4 channels for injectors, and four channels for ignition. Would connect the spark igniters to two of the igniter channels - think this can be done.

Finding a connector that will connect to the OEM wiring harness ECU connector is going to be a challenge.

Appreciate any assistance and comments.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#53

Post by socrace »

Ernest,
You asked (2 months ago, sorry): "Question is regarding a 36-1 trigger wheel, and cam sensor. Was a VR or Hall sensor used in conjunction with this?" Both sensors I used were Hall; the cam sensor actually used the fuel pump mount and pointed to detect the cam pump lobe. The cam sensor was just used to allow the 4 coil sequential ignition. The ecu I used didn't have enough outputs to do both sequential ignition and injection at the same time (had to choose one or the other so I kept the injection as "paired batch fire" like the stock original ltd/se Honda used). The main advantage of using 4 sequential ignitors is you have longer dwell time to generate that "welding arc" effect at the spark plugs! I think it made a difference, especially at high rpm. Sequential injection is supposed to mainly help idle, but I tried it and didn't notice any difference.
Bob D
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#54

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Bob - Thanks for the reply. Have been progressing the project, have the WBO2 sensor installed. Waiting for the weather to warm up, garage is a tad chilly. Have the Speeduino wired and ready to go in. The OEM crank (Ns) and cam (Gr/Gl) sensors are VR and are being connected through a VR conditioner. Will be using one of the OEM PB (MAP) sensors for a barometric sensor, determining how to wire it through the existing wiring harness so I don't have to cut too many holes in the enclosure. have to solder in a 430 (?) ohm resistor The OEM spark igniters are programmed as Going High. Did this because of the OEM test specs. Going Low did not give the same results as required. Using the onboard MAP sensor. Going to use paired firing. Not giving up on sequential down the road, but intend to get it going as built. Might even consider high impedance injectors later on. Timing is going to be a set, then test procedure. Starting with the timing at 180 degrees mostly because of the 8 tooth wheel. Will be using dual wheel configuration. Have to set the TPS settings. The Speeduino allows me to use the passive IAC system.

Have looked at the OEM wiring schematics and theoretically, the dash and travel computer functions should work as per normal - hoping.

The OEM dwell time is 15 degrees. Think I have the "ms" times somewhere and in the program.

I have the wiring done and using the existing OEM wiring harness. Allows me to change back to the original configuration when required. Will be checking one more time before a start is attempted.

Have been learning more over the past few months and the requirements make more sense. Honda did a great job with regards to the CFI system on these '85/'86 FI bikes, and the resulting engine operation is very conservative. Cannot use the spark plug colour for tuning because you cannot change the timing or fuel injection timing to suit.

Have to learn how to use a wiring diagram application. Lots of wiring changes that I know, but would like to have on paper.

I will be doing a, hopefully, comprehensive rollup of the project when finished.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#55

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Using Classic GW and Speeduino to report the progress on my '85 GW Limited Edition ECU replacement project; however, good news.

Have been adjusting Speeduino settings, adjusted the timing yesterday to bring it into the ball park. Timing adjustment also determined whether the spark igniter setting was GOING LOW or GOING HIGH. GOING HIGH is the setting to use. Using GOING LOW and timing will not move.

Timing trigger setting is now at a positive 125. Started the timing trigger setting at 180, and changed from this.

Using a dual wheel ECU configuration. This allows me to use the crank (Ns) sensor and one cam (Gr or Gl) for timing and piston orientation. The dual wheel is crank - 8 tooth, and cam - single tooth.

Set the TPS, has to be done with the Speeduino connected to the CFI system.

Spark igniter settings are done, GOING HIGH.

Using the passive Inlet Air Control (IAC) system. This is needed because unlike a carb system, the throttle plates are almost completely closed when the throttle is closed. Honda realized that this was not good especially when riding on the road, engine would be starved for combustion air, and designed the passive IAC system using reed valves to draw air in for the cylinders. Works well.

Have installed a barometric circuit using one of the OEM PB (MAP) sensors.

WBO2 sensor from 14point7 installed and connected. Using the wiring from the second PB sensor to get the signal into the Speeduino.

The basis for this project was and is to maintain the OEM CFI system components and do as little component and wiring change as possible. Have been successful in this regard and can revert back to the OEM ECU if needed. The fellows on the Speeduino forum have been extremely helpful in getting me to this point.

Today's work was to install the plugs - had these out to turn the engine fast so I could dial in the timing. Use the right timing belt pulley for timing, just as accurate as trying to use the timing mark port on the engine case.

Connected the fuel pump - it was disconnected while I checked the timing.

Installed the Speeduino and connected the laptop with Tuner Studio installed.

Took a few attempts, and could tell the timing was off but not by much.

The engine did start, but would not idle. Operated the engine for some 30 seconds or so, let off the throttle and it stalled. Good progress to date.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#56

Post by pidjones »

Bet that sounded great. Congrats!
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#57

Post by Rednaxs60 »

pidjones - thanks. A huge milestone considering the premise for the project. It was a bit daunting going for the "Full Monty" so to speak - fuel and engine timing, not to mention using the OEM system and components. Not out of the woods yet, but closer. Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#58

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Brief update on trials and the learning experience.

Have had the engine started, and working not too bad in the 1700 to 2200 RPM range, does not want to idle lower. Timing is still an issue. Work in progress.

One issue is trying to make an older OEM design system work with the newer technology - component replacement. There are design issues that may or may not be compatible between the original, older OEM design and the newer technology.

Timing/fuel injection is directly related to the cam/crank input signals. The crank signal is good, but the cam signal is different than expected, and may be affecting the fuel injection decision by the new ECU.

This picture is from one of the data logs:
Screenshot 2023-01-30 at 12.39.20 PM.png
Screenshot 2023-01-30 at 12.39.20 PM.png (36.35 KiB) Viewed 1666 times

The blue trace is from the crank trigger wheel. The green trace is from the cam trigger wheel. It is a long sensor signal, with a sync loss part way through. The cam trigger wheel is designed this way for the OEM CFI system and may be one of the reasons why there are two cam sensors.

This is the OEM cam sensor trigger wheel:
Cam Trigger Points Spec.jpg
Cam Trigger Points Spec.jpg (364.81 KiB) Viewed 1666 times
The loss of sync occurs at the indicated small dimple, and the signal is lost completely at the large dimple. Have made a new cam trigger wheel to try - single tooth, but will have a very definitive signature:
Cam Sensor Wheel - 1.JPG
Cam Sensor Wheel - 1.JPG (102.26 KiB) Viewed 1666 times
Cam Sensor Wheel - 2.JPG
Cam Sensor Wheel - 2.JPG (77.11 KiB) Viewed 1666 times
The newer aftermarket ECUs only use one cam sensor, and have a cam tooth that is approximately the same width as the sensor pole pin.

Have a 75 mm OD 36-1 crank trigger wheel ordered in case there are continuing issues. The OEM crank trigger wheel is an 8 tooth wheel - cam wheel is a single tooth, giving me an 8/1 dual wheel system. The ECU uses the trigger wheel pulses to determine the output to the engine. The better the resolution, more input signals, the better the determination of what is required. In this case, 8 pulses compared to 35 (missing tooth). A lot of flexibility in the decision making with only 8 crank sensor pulses - resolution could be better. I have read that there can be idling issues in the low RPM range because of the tooth count.

The 36-1 crank missing tooth trigger wheel can be used for paired and semi-sequential injector layout. If going to sequential, the missing tooth decoder supports sequential fuel injection but only if a cam signal input is added.

Installing the 36-1 crank trigger wheel could probably eliminate a lot of issues I am having trying to incorporate the new ECU with the old CFI system design.

Noise - always an issue for electronic systems. Noise can be from variety of sources and is hard to determine. This is regardless of new or older systems. gpineau on the Speeduino forum did an EFI conversion and used ferrite toroids on the input signals to the Speeduino ECU to reduce/eliminate potentially noisy input signals. Have order a few and may install - can't hurt. This is a picture of gpineau's ferrite toroid install:
Torroids 2.jpg
Torroids 2.jpg (114.39 KiB) Viewed 1666 times
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#59

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Brief update on trials and the learning experience - part 2

I have often wondered why the OEM cam sensors - GR/GL, have a magnet, and what the impact is from a broken magnet. I have researched VR and Hall effect sensors to the Nth degree because of this project, and every now and then come to an understanding of what I am seeing.

The GR/GL cam sensor OEM design is a three piece VR (variable reluctance) sensor designed this way because of space constraints. It's low profile, and has the three main components of an encapsulated VR sensor that requires more space - the magnet, coil, and pole pin. The magnet must be there for the VR sensor to work. Haven't found any replacement magnets, but will keep searching.

These pictures illustrate the space constraint issues. The first is the relatively bulky Ns crank sensor, everything encapsulated. Installed in the timing belt cover area, lots of room:
Ns - Crank Sensor.JPG
Ns - Crank Sensor.JPG (178.36 KiB) Viewed 1665 times
The GR/GL sensors have less space and require a different design:
Cam Sensor Install.jpg
Cam Sensor Install.jpg (127.09 KiB) Viewed 1665 times
These are a low profile, compact design with the same components as the Ns sensor. You can see the magnet, silver pole pin and coil that are encapsulated/out of sight in the Ns VR sensor. The component that can fail is generally the coil unit. The LX579 coil unit has been used as a replacement for the OEM coil.

Have considered changing the VR sensors to Hall effect sensors. Space, size, mounting arrangement, power requirement are some of the issues to be considered. I also don't want to stray too far from the OEM original design that converting back to the OEM configuration is a challenge, may not have a choice.

VR sensors output an AC sine wave because of the magnetic field change, no 5 VDC input required and the reason it is a two wire sensor. This sine wave needs to be converted to a digital square wave for the ECU to use the signal; hence the requirement for a VR Conditioning board. Our older OEM ECUs have this function built in. Not certain if you can change the VR sensors to Hall effect sensors on our older CFI models, thinking you cannot.

Hall effect sensors output a digital square wave, but require a 5 VDC input - would need to find and wire in a 5 VDC source for these. Hall effect sensors have three wires. These sensors can be used by the new ECUs without having the signal modified to use.

Did a review of the wiring diagram. There was one issue regarding the GR/GL sensor wiring. The GR/GL sensors have a common wire and separate signal wires. One more quick review and should be good to go.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#60

Post by Rat »

Whew …

Gord :roll: anim-cheers1 :roll:
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