1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#31

Post by Rednaxs60 »

No worries - it can be intimidating. Nice to have a bit of a following.

I have some pictures of the crank (Ns) sensor install and the cam (Gr/Gl) sensors. The first picture shows the current install with a sensor installed in the upper and lower position. I have the lower sensor connected to the CFI system. The upper sensor is there in case the lower sensor fails. Won't have to take the front end off to use a different sensor:
PG Sensor Used for Ns sensor.jpg
PG Sensor Used for Ns sensor.jpg (123.18 KiB) Viewed 2032 times
This second picture shows the Ns connection under the shelter:
Ns Sensor Connector.jpg
Ns Sensor Connector.jpg (88.89 KiB) Viewed 2032 times
This third picture shows the original Ns sensor position and the 8 tooth trigger wheel:
Old Crank Pulse Sensor and trigger wheel.jpg
Old Crank Pulse Sensor and trigger wheel.jpg (95.17 KiB) Viewed 2032 times
This next set of pictures are of the cam (Gr/Gl) sensors as installed:
GR-GL Sensors.jpg
GR-GL Sensors.jpg (348.55 KiB) Viewed 2032 times
This last picture shows the Gr sensor and single tooth trigger wheel. The Gl sensor was removed to measure because the fellows on the CX500-650 turbo forum found an aftermarket sensor to replace these when this sensor fails:
GR-GL sensor 2.jpg
GR-GL sensor 2.jpg (80.32 KiB) Viewed 2032 times
More to follow.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Sugs
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#32

Post by Sugs »

Yay! Some pictures so I can wrap my head around this. I don't do well with just reading and no pictures.
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#33

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Have lots of pics of my bike, just have to find them. Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#34

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Not much to report since my last update other than have been reading, and re-reading threads/literature, as well as watching YouTube videos both MS and Speeduino.

Have been looking into injector latency. Found this web site from my browsing: https://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html Looks like a starting point for the injector lag time is approximately 0.98

Have question for socrace regarding his COP install. Have viewed his thread on his conversion, and agree with everything he did: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50431&hilit=ford+co ... conversion The Speeduino can accommodate sequential ignition so this mod will be beneficial as I go forward. My question is about the initial install with the existing OEM system wiring. I ask because I'm quite rusty with electronic circuitry.

The OEM system being waste spark has 3 ohm coils, no ballast resistor. The COP units I have looked at have a primary resistance of 0.660 ohms, secondary 6.1K ohms. Doing the parallel resistor calculation of 1/0.66 + 1/0.66 = 3.0 ohms. In my mind this would infer that I should be able to install these COP units in parallel and carry on as per normal as the resultant value overall is the same as the OEM Install.

Like how the cop install is. One issue I see is the fuel pressure test point on the right fuel rail is not available with the cop setup. Not a big issue, but would have to be considered.

Chime in, comments greatly appreciated. I'm with socrace in that some of these mods may not provide a noticeable difference such as the 12 VDC supply to the coils from the accessory fuse block that I did, but I know it has been done.

I am learning how to use a small drawing system - TinyCAD. Hope to get comfortable enough with it to do schematics.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
socrace
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#35

Post by socrace »

Sounds like good progress being made!
As for injector latency, I used .0015 seconds as an estimated number. It's really only needed for initial calculations, the tuning process will determine the actual fuel table anyway. You can probably use your oscilloscope to measure the actual open/closing times, although I've never tried it.
As for cop setup, the objective here is to use a short dwell time rather than series resistance to limit coil current. This means the coils are wired directly to 12v. I'm using about 30 amps peak coil current; this sounds like a lot, but it' only for a short dwell time so average power is low. The system still has to support 30 amps though, so big wires are needed!
Here is a good resource for calculating parallel resistance: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/re ... res_4.html
The fuel pressure test point on mine can still be accessed with engine running by loosening one of the coils.
One other thing you'll probably run into concerns using the stock Honda cam sensors. They are inductive type, which need a "zero crossing" detector to be accurate. The detector chip used in the speeduino is the max9924, which is the same one used in my usquirt. Unfortunately, this chip cannot detect slow pulses, in particular pulses more than about 50ms apart. At cranking speed, the cam signals are going to be about 200ms apart, so will need to replace the inductive pickup with a hall sensor.
Looking forward to your next report!
1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#36

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Thanks Bob. Looked at the tutorial page and see my error. Since the two COP units are the same hooked in parallel would equate to a primary resistance of 0.330 ohms. Last time I read about this was 1981. The coil power is presently using 16 GA wire direct from the accessory fuse block.

As to the sensors, I believe theses are VR sensors. Will look into hall effect sensors. But first I will instrument and see what the signal is.

I have started to look at the operation of the OEM system from a more technical perspective in that I have started to instrument the various sensors being used and seeing what the outputs are.

For instance I just finished with the PB (MAP) sensors. I married the two sides, and hooked up a vacuum gauge. The base vacuum at idle of approximately 1000 RPM (+/- 100) is 7 in of HG. The vacuum is max between 2100 and 2400 RPM at 12/12.5 in of HG. Here are pics of the readings:
Vacuum at Idle.jpg
Vacuum at Idle.jpg (130.36 KiB) Viewed 1997 times
Vacuum at 2400 RPM.jpg
Vacuum at 2400 RPM.jpg (123.79 KiB) Viewed 1997 times
I already have the pressure readings for these sensors so this is complete for the time being. It does raise a question in my mind as to what control mode - N-Alpha (some mention Alpha-N) or speed density is used and when, or if only one is used. Since there is no documentation on the ECU programming, have to learn what I can and make a decision from there. From my reading into the Speeduino system, an Alpha-N with MAP multiplier will probably be the start. Must remember there is no O2 sensor.

This tells me that the MAP sensor is probably not a factor above this RPM.

I did notice that I had to adjust the idle to accommodate the marrying of the cylinder bank vacuums, and that the engine RPM did not return to base idle as quickly as before I joined the two cylinder banks. I took the bike out for a road test and it appears to operate much the same as before except that the engine did not idle down as fast. Will be driving it with the cylinder banks joined together for a bit to see if there is any change. This will probably be a mute point with the new Speeduino since it will be using one MAP sensor, not two.

I'm also thinking that doing this investigative work may not be of any benefit to the new ECU, but at least I will have a better understanding of what is presently installed.

I will be doing the same for the other sensors over the next 6 months, primarily because I am getting my 1500 GW ready for a 5 week trip from Victoria BC to the Yukon/Alaska return.

I will be looking at the crank and cam wheels this week to determine how these are setup and correlate to what the Speeduino will need. As well I will be installing signal testing points for the other sensors as well.

May seem to be a bit disjointed, but I can assure you it will all come together.

Keep the comments/suggestions coming.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#37

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Bob - question. The crank/cam sensors are apparently VR (variable reluctor) sensors. My understanding is that these provide a sine wave type signal and have to corrected for use with the ECU whereas a Hall Effect Sensor has a square wave signal. The Speeduino board I have purchase has a VR conditioner board to convert the signal from a VR sensor to a square wave that the Speeduino needs. There are two conditioning circuits, one for crank, other for cam. Thoughts?
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#38

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Have been progressing my quest for an upgrade/replacement ECU. Have the bike in the garage so that I can put in additional wiring to do some signal tests, as well as some minor maintenance I have been wanting to do.

In advance of receiving the Speeduino ECU unit, I ordered a couple of Arduino Megas from Toronto and received them yesterday. This is the brains of the Speeduino ECU assembly:
Arduino Mega.JPG
Arduino Mega.JPG (406.71 KiB) Viewed 1982 times
Packaging was quite small, and I thought it was something else. Was surprised at the size of these units 4X2 inches, came with the CH chip but can work with that. Come a long way since the mid '80s. I remember my first computer, an IBM PCJr. Every time I started it, the message on the screen read IBM PCjr 128K the most powerful computer you will ever need.

Installed the firmware onto the Mega. Tried doing it through the Arduino software, but was getting an error message regarding "table H". Fiddled with this for a while then decided to use SpeedyLoader. Had to disable the virus software on my laptop, ESET, to use SpeedyLoader. Installed firmware without a hitch. Good start.

The assembled unit I have ordered has a Mega attached, will be interesting to see what it has.

Have been browsing the web regarding the Speeduino and how to set it up and use it. Every now and then have to visit the Megasquirt sites as well.

Found a site that has information regarding the air and coolant temp sensors and how to set them up to use with the software/hardware at this site: http://dtec.net.au/Tech%20Articles.htm Lots of good info.

It's a steep learning curve, but will be worth it.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
socrace
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#39

Post by socrace »

Looking good.
The Speeduino should have no problem reading a standard 5v cam hall sensor. The stock Honda crank vr sensor can also probably be read using the speeduino add-on vr sensor module. That module uses the problematic max992x chip, but the crank sensor in this case produces a high enough frequency that it should be readable without a problem. I think the vr sensor module board comes included with the speeduino kit you ordered, but maybe not.
The Tuner Studio software can probably accommodate the stock Honda coolant, air temp and throttle position sensors. Not sure about the Honda manifold pressure sensor though, may need to use something else.
1981 Goldwing Standard - efi'd, other stuff
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#40

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Thanks. Have been reading and watching videos - getting a better handle on this upgrade/replacement. Have the Dupont connectors ordered for bench testing and waiting patiently for the Speeduino unit.

The unit I ordered is assembled with a VR conditioner and step motor driver components installed. The board has an integral MAP sensor. It comes with the ULN2803 chip to be installed - use it for rad fan and fuel pump control. Here's the Speeduino board fully populated:
Speeduino Board 2.jpg
Speeduino Board 2.jpg (152.39 KiB) Viewed 1972 times
The board is only 10 cm by 10 cms. Pretty small compared to the OEM install.

tried installing the ArduStim program in one of the Arduino Mega boards I have. This is used to provide inputs into the Speeduino to confirm that the input circuits are working. You do this with Tuner Studio up and running. Wasn't successful so will be working on getting this done.

Have been looking at the timing and Honda has me baffled so far. Been trying to determine #1 tooth using the Speeduino and Megasquirt info, but no joy. Have read the OEM supplement and it is a bit better. For the FI bike, Honda has three timing requirements, static, dynamic at idle, and dynamic with RPM increase. Here is a picture of the timing marks:
Timing Marks 2.jpg
Timing Marks 2.jpg (20.43 KiB) Viewed 1972 times
Here's a PDF if the resolution is not so good:
Timing Marks 2.pdf
(89.77 KiB) Downloaded 67 times
I did look at the trigger wheel alignment regarding the three timing positions. For the static, initial timing adjustment, the tooth on the trigger wheel that aligns with the "T" timing mark lines up with the Ns sensor. When the timing mark is moved to the "F" timing mark for engine at idle, the tooth on the trigger wheel moves so that it is approximately 3 degrees before TDC. When the timing mark is moved out of the timing window, the tooth on the trigger wheel is approximately 10 to 12 degrees before TDC. Don't know if this makes sense, but reading this and looking at the timing marks may. I am going to do some degree readings and take a few more pics of what I am talking about.

I did look at the first tooth past the post and such, and got a degree reading of 135. Only have 8 teeth on the trigger wheel - 22 1/2 degree between each tooth. Missing something here, but I think looking at where the tooth is that passes the sensor and moving the timing marks to get a degree reading will be the way to go because I am keeping the OEM install.

I have added some connectors to take signal readings from the Gr/Gl, Ns and TPS sensors:
Wiring Sensor Taps.jpg
Wiring Sensor Taps.jpg (339.7 KiB) Viewed 1972 times
. More to follow on this.

Will need to get some readings from the air inlet and coolant temp sensors. Will do this fall when I do some engine work. As an aside, have ordered a set of rings for the old girl. Could probably reuse the OEM rings, but call me old school, when cylinders are honed should put in new rings.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#41

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Did some more work on this. Tried the methods in the Speeduino and Megasquirt documentation and no joy. Decided on a different strategy with the OEM timing marks. The "T" timing mark is a static measurement for determining #1 TDC. The "F" timing mark is for idle operation. Then the timing is changed from there. Took a small level and marked the alternator crank pulley at the 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions. This was to allow me to measure the crank degrees as per the timing marks. Here's a picture of the alternator crank pulley. You should be able to see the pencil marks I used:
Alt Pulley.jpg
Alt Pulley.jpg (311.06 KiB) Viewed 1966 times
Had the timing set for #1 TDC, then moved the timing to the "F" timing mark, took degree measurement with a protractor (very scientific) - refer to the timing mark diagram above. Angle measurement is approximately 13 degrees BTDC. After this the timing is advanced depending on the speed. This should be fairly accurate and give me a good starting position for the dwell angle.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#42

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Been doing some more homework. Hooked up test wires and used the small scope I bought, the DSO138. The Ns - crank sensor trace is:
NS Sensor Signal.jpg
NS Sensor Signal.jpg (123.12 KiB) Viewed 1955 times
It's a sine wave so will need to use a signal conditioner to make it a square wave. The Gr/Gl signals are the same - sine wave, but comes through quite a bit less, only one pulse showed up:
Gr Sensor Signal.jpg
Gr Sensor Signal.jpg (116.72 KiB) Viewed 1955 times
Need to look into this more.

I don't need the Gr/Gl cam sensors to operate the engine with the Speeduino. The Ns crank sensor is more than adequate. Only need second signal for sequential applications.

Checked the timing with my Father's old Snap On unit:
Dad Timing Light.jpg
Dad Timing Light.jpg (292.11 KiB) Viewed 1955 times
Timing Light 2.jpg
Timing Light 2.jpg (86.89 KiB) Viewed 1955 times
The nice feature of this timing light is you can find the dwell. In my last post checking dwell degree with the alt crank pulley was approximately 13 degrees. With the timing light engine has a 14/15 degree dwell at operating temp. Good starting point.

More to follow.
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#43

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Having my brother send me my father's tach-dwell meter to get the dwell numbers. Had to do a little more research and you are not able to convert the degrees BTDC into dwell time.

Also need to determine spark plug burn time. Going to get a Secondary Ignition Capacitive Auto Pickup Probe for the small oscilloscope to get this info.

So much to do. Learning a lot about this CFI system and the intricacies of changing out an OEM product.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#44

Post by Rednaxs60 »

Slow slogging learning the intricacies of an ECU upgrade/replacement. I focus on an a specific item that I do not know about, or know much about. Have been focusing on "Flood Clear level". This is applicable to both the Speeduino and Megasquirt family with the difference being in how each handles the issue. I have read up on both and it is different.

Don't know if the CFI system installed on my '85 LTD FI model GW has this or not.

For the Speeduino, my ECU upgrade/replacement, a percentage is used in TunerStudio engine constraints under Cranking Settings.

For those reading and not familiar with this flooding concept for a FI system, FI systems can flood same as a carb model. How it is taken care of is what is different.

The Flood Clear Level is a programmed event based on engine cranking RPM and percentage of throttle opening using the TPS as the indicator for throttle opening. Should you flood an FI engine, with the engine RPM below the cranking RPM threshold as specified in the engine tune, and the throttle open at least 80% (this percentage can be adjusted to suit your installation and engine), the ECU shuts off the injectors allowing you to crank the engine for a bit to clear out excess fuel. After a few cranks, you might notice the engine trying to start. Keep cranking till it does. Once it starts, there will likely be a big cloud of smoke and a lot of fumes.

Have been pondering the number in the Speeduino manual section 4.14.2 of 80%. As mentioned above, 80% seems to be an auto industry standard. The explanation in the manual is: "Flood Clear level - Flood clear is used to assist in removing excess fuel that has entered the cylinder/s. Whilst flood clear is active, all fuel and ignition events will be stopped and the engine can be cranked for a few seconds without risk of starting or further flooding. To trigger flood clear, the RPM must be below the above Cranking RPM setting and the TPS [highlight=yellow]percentage[/highlight] (added description) must be above the threshold of this setting."

Found another reference: http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/modes.htm

This site has more information that I will review as I progress; however, it gives a good description as well and gives more clarification to the Flood Clear Level just a bit more in that the throttle has to be open more than 80% (number used in the Speeduino Manual and to be determined by each individual tune) and the RPM below the cranking threshold.

I can now peruse the other Cranking Settings and clarify these for myself.

For the cranking RPM looking at removing the spark plug boots and turning the engine over for a cranking RPM. Will see how it goes.

There are a couple of Cranking Settings criterion that will not be applicable such as the Cranking Bypass and Bypass Output Pin.

Have looked at Voltage Correction as well. The principle and how it operates is understood. The write up in the manual is quite clear so this is another topic I can put to bed so to speak. There is a good explanation at the gmtuners site as well.

As an aside, have ordered a logic analyzer and the clips, $12.00 CDN delivered. Don't know how applicable this will be to my project, but for the price and what can be achieved may be worth the cost.

Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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Rednaxs60
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Re: 1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade

#45

Post by Rednaxs60 »

I have taken the time to consolidating a lot of the information I have been collecting and assimilating. The first part - Speeduino Project - Musings is an overview of what I have started on:
Speeduino Project - Musings.pdf
(72.1 KiB) Downloaded 75 times
Speeduino Project - Musings - Part 2 is now complete. I have compared what is existing to where I want to end up with the Speeduino project. I'm certain it is not complete, but I feel much better about having done this. For those of you who have read the first part as a cure for insomnia, hopefully this part will not be as painful.

I find that by reading literature/documentation, correlating it into some form of understanding, then putting my understanding back into print is a good way to learn about what I am doing. Served me well throughout school and during my Naval trades training.

Enough pontificating, here is the file in PDF:
Speeduino Project - Musings - Part 2.pdf
(76.6 KiB) Downloaded 70 times
Cheers
"When writing the Story of your life, don't let anyone else hold the pen."

Ernest

1985 GL1200 Limited Edition
2014 Can-Am Spyder RT LE
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan
1995 GL1500 SE CDN Edition (sold)
2012 Suzuki DL1000 VStrom (sold)
Ontario 1985 GL1200 Limited Edition (sold)
2008 GL1800 (sold)
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