Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system

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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#16

Post by Recycled Roadkill »

mikenixon wrote:As much as 100 volts AC is fed into them, and less than 17 volts DC emerges.
In consideration of Ohm's law wouldn't Amps increase considerably less what converts into waste heat?

Would there be a more suitable replacement for the rectifier/regulator that doesn't create so much heat that wouldn't be a PITA to replace the original setup? It seems to me that would increase available amperage to the whole electrical system for additional accessories unless the existing wiring couldn't handle it. That is, unless the gain would be minimal.

Sheesh, I hope that makes sense 'cuz my head still hurts. :IDTS:
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#17

Post by IndianaJohn »

A very good question! But I think you would still be limited by the maximum Amp output of the stock stator. Unfortunately I don't know what the stock stator current output is, tho Mike will probably know.
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 5

#18

Post by bladredhead »

mikenixon wrote:(lots of stuff cut out for brevity.... ) The Honda VFR guys are hot on this stuff because the factory regulator/rectifier failed often. I remember that from being a service manager at a Powerhouse Honda dealership in those days.
thanks for the response and while i don't get all of it, and i'm not in any need of an upgrade at the moment, it's a good start for when i do!

honda isn't the only one with problems, 2000 vintage triumphs have a pretty weak charging system as well (i assume to preserve the english automotive tradition?), suzuki has issues... i think it's mostly cooling related for all of them. they get stuck under a fairing and cook themselves over time. anyway, thanks again!
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#19

Post by mikenixon »

Recycled Roadkill wrote:
mikenixon wrote:As much as 100 volts AC is fed into them, and less than 17 volts DC emerges.
In consideration of Ohm's law wouldn't Amps increase considerably less what converts into waste heat?

Would there be a more suitable replacement for the rectifier/regulator that doesn't create so much heat that wouldn't be a PITA to replace the original setup? It seems to me that would increase available amperage to the whole electrical system for additional accessories unless the existing wiring couldn't handle it. That is, unless the gain would be minimal.

Sheesh, I hope that makes sense 'cuz my head still hurts. :IDTS:
Well, I'm no electrical engineer, and I am sorry if I made it sound like I was, but I would answer that question by goong back to the available wattage of the system, which I think starts mainly at the magnet and stator configuration. I can't see much more than minimal increases possible further downstream, of course by a more efficient reg/rect. All reg/rects are pretty wasteful, that is, all the rectifier portions, for reasons already offered. Some less and some more though. When Honda sold a Hondaline fairing for one of its bikes, the CB900 Custom, it included in the fairing kit a different reg/rect to compensate for anticipatd load increases, so presumably a little more can be had at the end of the line by carefull reg/rect design. On the other hand, police bikes produced by Harley Davidson and Kawasaki have different stators than the non-police models, showing that ultimately, the source (magnets, stator and the speed of rotation) is where changes in overall output must be made. Make sense?
Last edited by mikenixon on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#20

Post by mikenixon »

IndianaJohn wrote:A very good question! But I think you would still be limited by the maximum Amp output of the stock stator. Unfortunately I don't know what the stock stator current output is, tho Mike will probably know.
A quick look has not turned up Honda's spec for the 1000 but I remember very well (for some odd reason) the 1100 spec, which is 320 watts. So the 1000 isn't going to be any greater than this. It's not much. Even today's minimalist sport bikes are double this now, and touring models are three times as powerful. This is not to say Honda did anything wrong. Who needed more than 300-320 watts back then (the SOHC 750 was less than 200), before onboard computers (some bikes, such as Kawasaki's Concours 14, have *four* 16 or 32 bit computers [ECUs] onboard!), wireless security, fuel injection, exhaust servos, secondary throttles, electically adjustable windscreens, heated grips, computerized gloveboxes, traction control, ABS, variable power modes, electronically adjustable suspension.....you get the idea? Did folks overtax them even back then? Sure. But I think they were capable of handling a fairing and a few goodies, which is all most people added on.
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#21

Post by mikenixon »

You might be interested to know that that famous permanent magnet vs. electromagnet split that the powersports industry exhibited for a very long time has an interesting history. The permanent magnet alternator (some training schools like to get fussy about what to call an alternator and what to call a generator, I'm staying out of that...) wasa actually first on the scene in (modern, postwar) motorcycling. Anyone remember the pushrod Brit biks with their zener diode regulators? Now that was something! They actually used two different forms of regulation, one was a headlight switch that cut in or out with the headlight an extra stator coil (winding) and the other was the zener, which was a diode wired directly across the battery. Yup. When the zener was activated, it was more or less a short across the battery terminals, and would have been a dead short if not for the fact that diodes have fairly high internal resistance. Think those zeners were long-lasting in this application? The Japanese came along and said, okay, we'll keep the switchable stator (most of Honda's singles and twins of the 60s and 70s) but we'll move the zener to merely a triggering role and in its place put a mich more durable SCR, and move it away from the battery to the stator. So instead of shorting the battery as the zener once did, the Japanse arrangement had the zener signalling an SCR which shorted the stator. This system continues on in the four cylinder Wing. The regulation was crude though, due to the available parts, and so in the 70s excited field, or to us, electromagnet systems such as those on cars emerged as the leading system and this continued into the early 1980s (not on Wings of course, but almost everything else). Until two things happened. First, it was determined that electromagnet systems were no more reliable than permanent magnet and no more economical to manufacture, and two, that the electronics for permanent magnet systems had by then improved (giving us instead of on/permanent magnet regulators more finely trimming FET and others), and so by the mid 80s permanent magnet charging systems were back in majority again. Kind of like how the CV carb went from rubber diaphragm to metal seal and back to rubber diaphragm, and for much the same reasons. :)
Last edited by mikenixon on Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 5

#22

Post by mikenixon »

bladredhead wrote:
mikenixon wrote:(lots of stuff cut out for brevity.... ) The Honda VFR guys are hot on this stuff because the factory regulator/rectifier failed often. I remember that from being a service manager at a Powerhouse Honda dealership in those days.
thanks for the response and while i don't get all of it, and i'm not in any need of an upgrade at the moment, it's a good start for when i do!

honda isn't the only one with problems, 2000 vintage triumphs have a pretty weak charging system as well (i assume to preserve the english automotive tradition?), suzuki has issues... i think it's mostly cooling related for all of them. they get stuck under a fairing and cook themselves over time. anyway, thanks again!
Ask questions. :-). I think the main thing in terms of long-term servicability is all this stuff is made to a cost. I lasts as long as it is supposed to. Motor vehicle electronics I don't think are manufactured the same as say, medical instrument electronics, but I could be wrong. In any case, the fact that most of these parts still work after nearly 40 years is pretty amazing too!
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#23

Post by Recycled Roadkill »

Thanks Mike for sharing all that knowledge.
For myself that adds up to "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it." :lol:
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It's never too late to have a happy childhood!
I've considered joining Insomniacs Anonymous, but I decided I'd sleep on it.

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'78 Honda GL 1000 Gentle Glide
'77 Honda GL 1000 Black Mamba (Sold) :(
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#24

Post by mikenixon »

Recycled Roadkill wrote:Thanks Mike for sharing all that knowledge.
For myself that adds up to "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it." :lol:
That's a good approach, yup.
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#25

Post by alwing17 »

Mike,thanks for the excellent write-up...I have been testing stators dynamically for a few years now,being a former auto tech for 22 years,on the advice of the oldest Honda dealer in Ohio.
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#26

Post by mikenixon »

alwing17 wrote:Mike,thanks for the excellent write-up...I have been testing stators dynamically for a few years now,being a former auto tech for 22 years,on the advice of the oldest Honda dealer in Ohio.
The only reliable way (especially since it involves justifying a major purchase...). Kewell!
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Re: Testing the 1000, 1100, 1200 charging system, Part 1

#27

Post by joedrum »

neat stuff
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