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Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:35 am
by Old Fogey
Eric, stop worrying about a B plate. That just means the normal plain steel plate, of which you need two. Incidently, the same plain plates are used from 75 right through to 87.

Rob, you have it right. You too can stop worrying about the measurement, there is plenty of leeway there and also plenty of adjustment.

Just throw the 'Plate B' damper plate as far as you can, stick one new (or used) plain plate in the middle of the pack, another at the end of the pack against the pressure plate and put it all back together.

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:19 am
by UK_Andy
Should I be looking out for this on my 1983 Gl1100?

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:26 am
by Old Fogey
UK_Andy wrote:Should I be looking out for this on my 1983 Gl1100?


The biggest problem with that damper plate is on the earliest GL1000 ones, where only one side plate has engaging teeth. This meant that all the torque was being transmitted though the spring steel 'straps'. At some point Honda realised this (you have to wonder about their design engineers!) and fitted two toothed plates, so now the straps were doing the job that they were intended for in the first place - to give a cushioning action to the clutch. We think that this occurred somewhere around 77 but I have not been able to pin it down.
The second part of the problem, with all the Plate B right into the 1200s, is the the spring steel straps are held to the plates with brass rivets (see above comment about engineers). These eventually give way, with the resulting destruction of the clutch.
Why Honda thought this piece of nonsense necessary I really don't know, but the whole engine is filled with things that you look at and think - 'Why?'

Full set of pictures on this problem here: http://www.wingovations.com/clutch-plat ... 4579471089

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:44 am
by ericheath
To clarify, I need a donor, steel plate if I choose to do this? 1200's had larger diameter clutch in pics, but steel plates from a 77 or earlier model will work ? Thanks for your legwork on this, John.

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:44 pm
by Old Fogey
Yes, although the 1200 clutch is much larger in diameter, strangely enough the plain plates are the same size (and part number) right through all the four cylinder models. You need two extras, one in the Plate B replacement position in the middle of the pack and another on the pressure plate end of the pack to make up the thickness loss.

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:39 am
by elslimdiablo
Thanks Fogey, just ordered a used clutch pack off fleebay for 14 bucks. Have a good one!

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:59 pm
by Skeeve
'84 roadster owner here, with '86I ownership in the (distant) past. Luckily, never had clutch problems with either [not high enough mileage I guess.]

What I fail to grok is why you can't just replace the "B (for Bad) plate" with another plain & friction plate in the middle of the stack: it would appear that the riveted plain/spring/plain construction of the "B plate" was intended to mimic the spacing of another plain/friction plate combo, so why not just put in another pair & just be done with it? Clutch gets extra friction surface so can hold more power, it's all good?

Don't blame me, I'm a devout Luddite: what am I missing here?

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:43 am
by Old Fogey
Nope, no can do.
The 'Plate B' is the equivalent of a very thick plain plate, in as much as each side of it is a friction plate. So you can't put another friction plate in there, only a plain plate. One plain plate is too thin to take up the space, so to make up the difference another plain plate is fitted at the pressure plate.
Your 1200 has the lesser of the two evils; a Plate B with both sides having teeth. But it still has the stupid brass rivets holding spring steel straps.

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:57 pm
by Skeeve
Old Fogey wrote:Nope, no can do.
The 'Plate B' is the equivalent of a very thick plain plate, in as much as each side of it is a friction plate. So you can't put another friction plate in there, only a plain plate. One plain plate is too thin to take up the space, so to make up the difference another plain plate is fitted at the pressure plate.


Ah, I get it now. So its a case of two plain plates, w/ one on the end of the stack, or a custom plain plate to fit the extra-thick Plate B dimension. Has anyone in the aftermarket ever done that? Barnett maybe? Did Honda ever reuse the clutch design minus the Plate B on a later model [ST1100 maybe? V65 Magna?] so you could just buy the clutch rebuild kit for one of those? Doesn't much bother me reusing a couple of the old plain plates if you have to go digging that deep in the engine anyway, but it would be nicer to just have all fresh components...

Your 1200 has the lesser of the two evils; a Plate B with both sides having teeth. But it still has the stupid brass rivets holding spring steel straps.


That might be part of why I've never encountered issues before, but from your description of it, if both plain plates have teeth, then they're not moving in relation to each other when the clutch engages, and the Plate B doesn't actually do anything wrt absorbing internal driveline shock, now does it? So all the better to remove it entirely, before the Rube Goldberg-ness of it can detonate and cause further internal damage.

Are we certain the engineer in charge of developing this part wasn't really a mole for Harley-Davidson, Yamaha or KHI? Or maybe turned by Honda's own accounting division as a tool for instituting a planned obsolescence "feature" that Soichiro-san would never countenance? This thing sounds nuttier on the face of it than any bizarre conspiracy theory one could drum up to try to explain its existence... :roll:

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:29 pm
by Old Fogey
If you want all new components, the plain plates are still available from Honda.

22321-MG8-000

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 2:14 pm
by Rednaxs60
Have an '85 LTD and have to replace the stator. Going to do the clutch at the same time as the bike has 120,000 Kms on it and PO towed a trailer. It was recommended on another forum to be the damper plate, and of course I asked why, and was directed to this forum. Having read the information here, I will be replacing the clutch damper plate with two steel plates.

Hav thought of the alt conversion, and do intend t change; however, sourcing the pulley is proving to be a challenge. Once I get the pulley then I will look at the mod.

I ordered the plain plates this morning P\N 22321-MG9-000 but this is now superseded by P/N 22321-371-010.

Lots of information here. Have perused the other forums now I have this one to go through.

Cheers

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 1:59 pm
by Rednaxs60
Was asked on another forum how the "bin the damper plate" is going and what has been the feedback from those who have done the conversion, specifically for the 1200s. Scoured the forums and have not found a lot of posts on feedback; however, I also contacted my parts guy and have found out that the infamous damper plate item #6 on the fiche and P/N 22322-MG9-000 is discontinued, but there are 2 sitting in Florida, probably new old stock (NOS).

The Haynes service manual details that the clutch damper should be checked for warpage, and make sure the wave spring(s) are not broken.

In viewing my clutch stack, the steel disc plates have been overheated and show discolouration to varying degrees. The previous owners had towed a trailer. One disc is scored around the middle of the disc. I will be replacing these as well as the friction discs. Regarding the damper, I would expect the state of the parts that make up the damper (those I cannot see) to be degraded as well from excessive heat, and make replacement necessary; however, since it is no longer available from Honda, or in a timely manner, it is a mute point and I will continue with the damper mod.

Here is a picture of a new disc:
New Clutch Disc.jpg

Here is a picture of one of the affected discs. My bike has 120,000 Kms on it. Note the scoring around the circumference, and the discolouration around the edges:
Old Clutch Disc.jpg


Since Honda has discontinued the manufacturing of the damper for older GW clutches, it would appear that this damper mod (take the damper and throw it as far as you can - skeet shooting comes to mind) and replace with two steel discs will probably become the norm for GW clutch rebuilds.

Cheers

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 9:26 pm
by Rednaxs60
Regarding '85 LTD. Have the new friction plates and just picked up the steel discs. Have two extra to replace the "B" damper plate. Measured the difference between the two clutch stacks - the new clutch stack is 0.023 inch smaller than the original clutch stack.

Checked the "B" damper plate for condition and movement. One of the steel discs is scored around the middle circumference, and there is some discolouration around the edges. I checked to determine if there was movement between the two steel discs and there is considerable movement such that I can see the rivets moving.

All in all a good time for a clutch rebuild at this time.

These dampers are discontinued, but there is some NOS out there.

As a side note, if you tow a trailer, and considering that these bikes were not designed with that in mind, and if you have the opportunity to pull the engine, you may want to take the clutch out and look at the condition of the friction and steel plates. My bike was used to tow a trailer by the POs.

Just a thought.

Cheers

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:08 pm
by Sidecar Bob
Old Fogey wrote:Eric, stop worrying about a B plate. That just means the normal plain steel plate, of which you need two. Incidently, the same plain plates are used from 75 right through to 87.

Rob, you have it right. You too can stop worrying about the measurement, there is plenty of leeway there and also plenty of adjustment.

Just throw the 'Plate B' damper plate as far as you can, stick one new (or used) plain plate in the middle of the pack, another at the end of the pack against the pressure plate and put it all back together.

I'm getting ready to put the clutch back into my '82 1100 engine and I decided to go through this thread again. It seems that there are two "b"s in the original clutch, the damper plate and the friction disc with the wider tabs. Confusing but maybe less so if I can make myself remember that the plain ones are called "plates" and the ones with friction material are called "discs" :oldies

So I figured I could just grab a couple more of the plates from my '79 parts engine and pop them into the '82 but the plates from the 1000 are smaller than the ones from the 1000
From the parts lookup at my dealer's site:
1979 GL1100 22321-MG8-000 or 22321-283-000
1982 GL1100 22321-MG9-000 or 22321-371-010 or 22321-463-000

Re: Bin that damper plate!

Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:18 am
by Old Fogey
quote:1979 GL1100 22321-MG8-000 or 22321-283-000
1982 GL1100 22321-MG9-000 or 22321-371-010 or 22321-463-000


Bob, as far as I am aware all the plain plates are the same right through all the fours.
I'm guessing that your first line you meant 79 GL1000. 283 is the model code for the CB450. It and the 750s used that plate and it was also used in the first of the GL1000s. Superceeded by 22321-371-010. This is the plate you also have listed for the GL1100. Even the 86'87 GL1200 with it's oddball clutch uses the same plate.