The ignition coil cult

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Re: The ignition coil cult

#16

Post by CYBORG »

Very interesting, and informative article. I would also be interested in your opinions on the C5 system. I have one on my 78 and would lke your opinion on them
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#17

Post by mikenixon »

Hi, Cyborg. I think someone asked me about that in connection with another post I made, and I remember admitting I have no real knowledge or experience with the product. Sorry.
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#18

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mikenixon wrote:Appreciate the comment. I hope we can disagree amicably, but I'm afraid I *have* to disagree with several points you've made. I am familiar with that (3- or 4- part) article series also. (I can still see in my mind's eye the RD350 with the big 'ol coils hanging off the front of the frame.) By "crap" I suppose you're referring to the fact that bike coils could not be loaded down and still fire as much as the oil-filled canister type car coil could. While the length of a test gap is a decent indicator of strength, voltage is not directly proportional to performance. There are other variables, and I have explained those in earlier posts. Beyond the voltage needed under the most extreme conditions, plus the surplus that ensures a good margin, more is superfluous. Magic sparks is a myth.

The point I have made in this article and in several others is that the bikes they used in the experiment, and any bike that gets a simple higher than stock ignition coil installed on it, ran/run better because they effectively carbureted better, the coils compensated for carburetion shortcomings (carburetors by definition are compromises, and then add real issues and carburetion can ultimately always be improved), not because the car coils' overcame any ignition deficiency. I don't at all consider OEM Honda point or TPI (electronic) ignitions to be marginal performers. Given components in good health, these ignitions actually work quite well in their intended environment, even when stressed by certain special adjustments geared toward performance (such as high dwell settings on points systems and larger than normal plug gaps on either type). Don't forget that the first season of Honda's 1025 superbikes used completely stock ignition systems, and that back in the day these were new bikes and when magazines put them through the ringer, ignition shortcomings were not heard about. They did not exist.

It is a common theme on some vintage Honda forums that the electrical systems on these bikes are marginal. Seems to be a favorite bogeyman of many. I have preached against this fallacy for many years now. Granted, 240 watts is virtually nothing compared with the over 1000 watts available on many bikes today, but no one stops to think that it was unheard of for anyone to complain about batteries going dead in those days. Yet, today, we have people on forums telling others, "better not put a quartz headlight on your 550, it'll drain the battery", and "it's normal for old Hondas to run their batteries down while riding in town." What nonsense! What utter and complete foolishness! As if some physics laws had changed over the last 40+ years. I am really not interested in trying very hard, but if I had to come up with reasons folks genuinely think these things, I would offer the following. First, really crappy (quality) batteries. A ton of these out there. No one seems to realize how very poor quality low-priced motorcycle batteries can be. Second, equally crappy aftermarket charging system replacement parts. A load of this stuff too, and most forum folks seem to not think twice about using Taiwanese stators and field coils, or of modifying or substituting parts whose function they don't even understand. Third, all 40+ year old bikes suffer from the neglect of their electrical connectors, and this undoubtedly takes its toll on electrical system performance, don't doubt it. Fourth and possibly most significant, there is a riding ethic today among the owners of vintage Hondas that would be totally foreign to those of us who owned these bikes in the 70s, that is, an insistance on operating these machies as if they were pushrod twins, i.e. at less than 4,000 rpm. That just doesn't work, and everyone back then understood it. And of course folks go down the same "this stuff is junk" path with ignition too. Maintained stock systems are marvels of efficiency.

Finally, the advent of electronic ignition. Your comment here is mostly sound, so I will add only that electronic ignition replaced point ignition for one reason only: the five-year clause in the then-new emissions warranty. And even that wouldn't have done it except the feds went one step further and arbitrarily assembled a parts list on which the points were listed as emissions parts. It was not because of their performance, whether in pre-emissions engines or post-emissions ones. There is no performance advantage in any electronic ignition that is simply a transistor-replaces-the-points type. Both are Kettering, with all the same characteristics, strengths and weaknesses.
Nice write up, you truly understand the bike electronics. I would like to respectively add the following. My 1972 CB450 has a 110 watt alternator. That is the spec in the Factory Shop Manual. That is why Honda fitted the original bikes with a 35 watt headlight. In 1972 they upgraded the selenium rectifier to 10% more efficient silicon rectifier. With that the increased the headlight to 50 watts. If a 55/60 watt headlight is fitted the bike will not charge the battery unless is it constantly running above 3,000 RPM. Another thing is the dwell of the ignition system and the inductance of the the coils will affect the current draw of the electrical system. A wider dwell allows the points to be closed for a longer period. This increases the average amount of current required. A lower impedance coil 2 ohms vs 5 ohms will draw more current than a 5 ohm coil. Most electronic ignitions do not publish the dwell of the primary. I have the PAMCO ignition on my 450. I was able to communicate with the designer of that ignition. He told me the dwell was about 25 degrees vs the stock 42 degrees. This allows me to run 3.3 ohm coils. I've swapped the tail light and dash lights out for LED. This gives me back about 7 watts. I put a 55/60 watt H4 headlight in it this fall. I also run a voltmeter so I can monitor the battery. So far so good. I wouldn't say the charging system is crap, but it is primitive. It is a fixed magnet alternator that produces a fixed amount of current based on RPM. I have it working about as well as possible. The bike runs extremely well. I don't think it is possible to foul the plugs. 110 watts is 110 watts. That is what Honda put into their bikes when it was designed back in 1964. I know this forum is about Goldwings and I will return it back to the author. THX
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#19

Post by CYBORG »

mikenixon wrote:Hi, Cyborg. I think someone asked me about that in connection with another post I made, and I remember admitting I have no real knowledge or experience with the product. Sorry.
might be worth a look. I found it to be a lot better then even advertised. The next logical step for cam driven ign. systems in my opinion.
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#20

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JamesPal wrote:Nice write up, you truly understand the bike electronics. I would like to respectively add the following. My 1972 CB450 has a 110 watt alternator. That is the spec in the Factory Shop Manual. That is why Honda fitted the original bikes with a 35 watt headlight. In 1972 they upgraded the selenium rectifier to 10% more efficient silicon rectifier. With that the increased the headlight to 50 watts. If a 55/60 watt headlight is fitted the bike will not charge the battery unless is it constantly running above 3,000 RPM. Another thing is the dwell of the ignition system and the inductance of the the coils will affect the current draw of the electrical system. A wider dwell allows the points to be closed for a longer period. This increases the average amount of current required. A lower impedance coil 2 ohms vs 5 ohms will draw more current than a 5 ohm coil. Most electronic ignitions do not publish the dwell of the primary. I have the PAMCO ignition on my 450. I was able to communicate with the designer of that ignition. He told me the dwell was about 25 degrees vs the stock 42 degrees. This allows me to run 3.3 ohm coils. I've swapped the tail light and dash lights out for LED. This gives me back about 7 watts. I put a 55/60 watt H4 headlight in it this fall. I also run a voltmeter so I can monitor the battery. So far so good. I wouldn't say the charging system is crap, but it is primitive. It is a fixed magnet alternator that produces a fixed amount of current based on RPM. I have it working about as well as possible. The bike runs extremely well. I don't think it is possible to foul the plugs. 110 watts is 110 watts. That is what Honda put into their bikes when it was designed back in 1964. I know this forum is about Goldwings and I will return it back to the author. THX
Very good points and excellent real life examples. What we used to do on the old 350s and 450s is permanently wire the second regulator (these bikes have two regulators, the second one is the headlight switch) always on and that helped a lot. I am sure you know these bikes' stators have two complete system outputs, one is at 3/4 power and the other tied to the headlight switch completes the system for full power. Our bypassing just made it full power full time, much as Honda did themselves on the last iteration of the 450, the 500T. Didn't realize the superseded (silicon as opposed to selenium) rectifier was so much more efficient. Interesting. The actual reason Honda superseded the rectifier was that selenium and germanium rectifiers bled back badly, and also, they tended to overheat, with the visible sign the selenium actually running under the orange paint! Third, they also got shook apart by the bike, since they were bolted together (the diodes) by a single bolt which also doubled as the mounting stud. Oh, and as for that 3,000 rpm... :-) Good comments!
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#21

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Mike, I didn't do the alternator mod to my 450. The bike has a home made wiring harness and the switches are new. I used 14 gage wire for the harness. The thinking was there would be less voltage loss. It seems to work pretty good. My riding buddy has a SV650 and he complains my lights are brighter than his. Here is a video I shot when I put the 55/60 watt headlight in it.

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Re: The ignition coil cult

#22

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Re: The ignition coil cult

#23

Post by AussieGold »

This has been an interesting and enlightening read, especially in light of a recent post by a fellow chasing an ignition
problem. Along with a link in that post regarding ballast resistors, I am left just a little bit confused.
Let's assume we have a stock bike. we can remove the ballast resistor and expect no ill effects. we can also switch and
mix, 2ohm , 3ohm or 5 ohm coils with no ill effects. either to the coils or the points. ?

I suppose the most obvious question is why Honda would fit ballast and a certain spec coil to different machines.

Now, to an odd problem i have been having.
76 LTD 1000. fitted with Dyna green 3 ohm coils. no ballast. Dyna points replacement modules. Coils and modules powered
direct from the battery via relay. using the original black/white wire that would normally feed the coils to trigger the
relay.
Problem is weak to no spark at cylinder 1.
test 1. removed the plug lead and tested on the bench for continuity, tested resistance in plug cap. ( new NGK)
test 2. switched no 1 plug lead with no 2 plug lead. very weak spark remained at number 1 cylinder.
test 3. changed no 1 and no 2 plug leads AT THE COIL. the weak spark moved to no 2 cylinder.

This suggests strongly that it is a coil problem. now, given the construction of the double output coil and the fact that
they are designed to run on the wasted spark principle, that is, both outputs firing at the same time, it seems to me
really odd that one output would be weak.
I have contacted Dyna and have not received an answer to that question. that is , does the construction of the coil allow
for one output to be faulty.
I am at the point of cutting it open to see how it is made , but any other test suggestions ?
ps
have tested resistance through each output, both coils measured the same.
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#24

Post by mikenixon »

AussieGold wrote:This has been an interesting and enlightening read, especially in light of a recent post by a fellow chasing an ignition
problem. Along with a link in that post regarding ballast resistors, I am left just a little bit confused.
Let's assume we have a stock bike. we can remove the ballast resistor and expect no ill effects. we can also switch and
mix, 2ohm , 3ohm or 5 ohm coils with no ill effects. either to the coils or the points. ?
Yes, all the above is true, despite the posturing going on on many user forums. And not only no ill effects, but some very beneficial ones. The article explains why there are different Ohm coils, namely, to engineer certain current loads to certain switching systems. But it's highly theoretical and very unrealistic in practice, a fact every long-time tech knows quite well by experience. Wouldn't you know that user forums virtually make a mantra out of it (specific primary resistance application), in their usual nonsensical and ignorant style.

AussieGold wrote:I suppose the most obvious question is why Honda would fit ballast and a certain spec coil to different machines.
The ballast resistor is, despite its name, design target and purpose everywhere else it is found, such as in a 57 Chevy, being used in the GL1000 as merely a power resistor. I'm sure you know the GL1000 has a two-voltage start/run scenario. It runs 8 volt coils on 12v for starting then once running runs them on 8 volts. You can thank the engineers for this oddness. They came from the car side of the company and dictated automotive tech throughout the engine. Pressed in piston pins, for example, traditional car tech. And a lot more. As to the two-voltage thing, complete overkill and inconsequential.
AussieGold wrote: Now, to an odd problem i have been having.
76 LTD 1000. fitted with Dyna green 3 ohm coils. no ballast. Dyna points replacement modules. Coils and modules powered
direct from the battery via relay. using the original black/white wire that would normally feed the coils to trigger the
relay.
Problem is weak to no spark at cylinder 1.
test 1. removed the plug lead and tested on the bench for continuity, tested resistance in plug cap. ( new NGK)
Unfortunately, the manual's resistance test is the least conclusive and reliable test of an ignition coil. Pros don't do it that way. The coil can be tested dynamically while still on the bike very easily, probably the easiest of any wire winding based part. A second type of test is used to determine if the whole ignition circuit is acting up, also a very easy yet very conclusive dynamic test. See below.
AussieGold wrote: test 2. switched no 1 plug lead with no 2 plug lead. very weak spark remained at number 1 cylinder.
test 3. changed no 1 and no 2 plug leads AT THE COIL. the weak spark moved to no 2 cylinder.

This suggests strongly that it is a coil problem. now, given the construction of the double output coil and the fact that
they are designed to run on the wasted spark principle, that is, both outputs firing at the same time, it seems to me
really odd that one output would be weak.
You are right to think this, but career mechanics know better. I have written about this here on the forum. It is a common misperception that a dual output coil cannot misfire on only one leg, but it certainly can. BMW even designed their air-cooled Boxer coils in anticipation of this. Ask for details if interested.
AussieGold wrote: I have contacted Dyna and have not received an answer to that question. that is , does the construction of the coil allow
for one output to be faulty.
I am at the point of cutting it open to see how it is made , but any other test suggestions ?
ps
have tested resistance through each output, both coils measured the same.
I have talked with Dynatek several times, the first back in the 70s when their name was Kilovolt and they were based in West Covina. Seriously. More recently, just a few weeks ago discussing their inexpensive rev limiter box. Quite a difference in the two calls. I don't think you'll get very much technical help from them these days if my last conversation is any indication.

The two tests I refer to above are, first the simple operation test is to simply connect and disconnect one of the primary wires while watching the grounded spark plug. Each time, the plug will fire. The spark must be blue to purple and snappy sounding.

The second test, which tests the whole ignition circuit and not just the coil, is to temporarily install a specially-modified spark plug whose gap is adjusted to 0.150" to 0.200". Lay this plug in the head grounded as usual. Don't leave any cylinders with open plug holes! Run the bike (yes, on three cylinders) and watch the special plug, rev the engine to at least 3,000 rpm. Same crtiteria, blue to purple, snappy, and in this case, continuous, without interruption.

By the way, I assume you have the Dyna plug wires? You should replace them with real wires. Not that this bears all that heavily on your symptom, but it can be a factor, for sure. At any rate, they're crap. Don't bother testing them, it isn't just their quickly degrading carbon nature that is a problem but also the fact that their crimping is poor (and can't be otherwise given their non-metallic nature), providing very low grade conductivity at their attachment points. I remove these on every Dyna-equipped bike that comes into my shop. Good plug wire is available all over, and the terminals also.

I won't say Dyna coils are not good, they are and I have long experience with them and their competition over more than 46 years in the trenches, on both customer bikes as well as my own. My present day ride is running 2-Ohm gray Dyna coils. But I have run across two times in the past year when they were faulty. The Dyna pulser modules are also failing, just got a heads up yesterday on one coming into the shop. So don't count either out of troubleshooting. The point of the article however is that aftermarket coils are window dressing. Even more, implied in the article is that aftermarket ignitions create more problems than they solve, mostly because they divert attention away from the real issues, and because as with most aftermarket stuff they aren't made nearly as well and as durable as OEM and even more importantly are virtually never installed very professionally in my experience.
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#25

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mikenixon wrote:Third, all 40+ year old bikes suffer from the neglect of their electrical connectors, and this undoubtedly takes its toll on electrical system performance, don't doubt it.
BINGO!! I lost count how many times I pulled the carbs apart on the 75 cb550 I started out with 10 or so years ago chasing a problem that turned out to be something else. After it's Dyna ignition failed after 3 years of use and I went back to points, that's when I decided to take the time to thoroughly clean every electrical connection on the bike I could get my hands on and that's when the bike ran amazing. Dyna was getting a bad rep for a while at that time but seeing how well my 550 responded to having all its electrical connections cleaned made me wonder if the real reason my Dyna ign failed had more to do with bad connections rather than the assumed poor quality of the Dyna and maybe, just maybe the Dyna I had would've lasted much longer had I taken the time to clean all those connections from the start. Both my current cb750 and 83 GL showed immediate improvements once I took the time to clean all their electrical connections as well.
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#26

Post by mikenixon »

Yes. All these bikes need their connectors cleaned if not rebuilt (terminals and block replaced). Makes a world of difference.
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#27

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I always learn something new in your topics. Always.
With that in mind, I would like to respectfully ask a question without getting reminded I am not a career or professional motorcycle mechanic or tech. A civil discussion. Please.

My 1975 GL1000 utilizes the green Dyna 3ohm ignition coils, a DynaS system and NAPA copper strand core ignition wires. A universal fit set that requires cutting to length and crimping on the appropriate terminals on both ends and their complementing rubber spark plug boots. NGK caps are not utilized. Both green 3ohm Dyna Coils were installed new last year, the new module style DynaS was installed 2 years ago, and the NAPA ignition wires ~2 years ago. I agree the copper ? stranded Dyna wires are worrisome.

I've personally seen 3 individual green 3ohm Dyna coils, each fail on the lower of the 2 secondary outlets, as installed. All 3 had been installed on my 1975 GL1000.
Circa 2015, 2 of them failed after a very brief exposure to a minor gasoline fire in the air filter housing. I knew better .... my son didn't. I immediately shoved the OEM Honda air filter element back into the air filter housing and slapped the cover back on. Maybe 10 seconds. ??
The very next time I started the engine, it ran very poorly. Investigation revealed #1 cylinder was not receiving spark potential from the right hand ignition coil. #2 cylinder was not affected.
Within another hour the left hand coil dropped #3 cylinder. #4 cylinder was not affected.

As I stated earlier , both coils' lower outlets were dead.

But, the upper outlet on both coils was stilling functioning correctly. Interesting..... and aggravating.
There was no external witness of scorching or discoloration from the brief exposure to excessive heat so I contacted Dyna, received an RGA and several weeks later received a new pair of green 3ohm Dyna coils. During that downtime, in order to continue riding, I had purchased another new pair of Dyna 3ohm coils from Z1.

The 2015 replacement set, received directly from DynaTek went on the parts shelf.
In mid 2016 the trike's engine was running poorly again. Eventually, after noting a crackling sound, I removed the Pacifico fairing, removed the side cover and found one of the new green Dyna ignition coils I had installed in 2015 was leaking externally along the upper secondary outlet. Visible in bright sunlight! I have video.

Subsequently, I took one of those 2 new Dyna coils off the part shelf, installed it, started the engine, and was amazed to find the lower outlet on that new coil was dead, too. Called Dyna, again received an RGA and eventually received another new 3ohm Dyna ignition coil.

Fast forwarding to 2020....

2 months ago, I was chasing a steadily worsening engine performance issue (which I've identified ) and after riding for at least an hour got off the trike, left the engine running and individually pulled each spark plug wire off to get a rough approximation of cylinder cancellation effects.

Cylinders 1 and 3, both, have frighteningly strong spark activity when their spark plug wire's boot is pulled off the spark plug. Similar to dancing lightning as their boot is pulled away from the spark plug. :shock:

Cylinders 2 and 4 spark activity seems anemic in comparison. Barely able to jump to ground when pulled away from the spark plug.

Cylinders 1 and 3 spark plug wires are both routed to the lower outlet on their respective coil.
Cylinders 2 and 4 spark plug wires are both routed to the upper outlet on their respective coil.

Now, I'll present the question.
With recently installed, properly gapped (0.028") NGK DR8EIX spark plugs into very clean cylinder head threads and no anti seize or other dressing applied, why would the lower spark plug wire outlet, on both green 3ohm Dyna ignition coils, provide so much more delivered potential than their respective upper spark plug wire outlet can provide?

side note- I have enjoyed learning a few more tips from your GL1000 Carburetor publication. tumb2
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#28

Post by mikenixon »

gltriker wrote: side note- I have enjoyed learning a few more tips from your GL1000 Carburetor publication. tumb2
Thank you for the kind words.
Last edited by mikenixon on Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#29

Post by mikenixon »

Upper and lower? Wait. The coils are mounted vertically and you are referring to the secondary terminals. Got it. I was having trouble picturing this. Back when I have read this again and formulated a reply.
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Re: The ignition coil cult

#30

Post by pidjones »

I would theorize that since the coils put out DC, one end + and one -, that the lowers provide which ever polarity is more prone to jumping from a larger diameter electrode. Put a point-to-point tester on both, and I would suspect that they both produce the same. Even the plugs don't provide the most ideal geometry for both to fire equally, but at the short distance it doesn't matter much when igniting fuel. As Mike has noted in a previous discussion, careful observation of used plugs will reveal one of each pair with center electrode eroded, while the other will have the ground electrode eroded.
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