79 Goldwing ignition timing.

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Jaymz65
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#16

Post by Jaymz65 »

Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply my posts. I am aware of the routing of the plug wires and their relationship to each coil and also that the points work on the redundant spark system. I have to report that I got both new sets of points fitted today, and my situation has improved some what. That being said, I still can't get enough timing adjustment on the right side points. I think I already said that my static timing light is coming on well before the flywheel reaches the F2 mark. Hence the poor running characteristics on the right side. I'm almost sure that this is the focal point of my issue but the Haynes manual is no help at all and I've been studying it for so long I'm going snow blind. ๐Ÿ˜ƒlol.
I can''t believe I'm the only person to ever have this problem and there is probably a simple solution that is staring me in the face but I can't see it at the moment๐Ÿ˜ญ. So near and yet so far.๐Ÿ‘
Jaymz65
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#17

Post by Jaymz65 »

P.S. I should have mentioned my complete lack of computer literacy๐Ÿ˜‚. Hence the lack of photographic evidence. When I work out how to post photos I will. ๐Ÿ๏ธ
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gltriker
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#18

Post by gltriker »

okay, yeah it's not easy to post photos if you aren't used to doing so. Haynes manual ?!

Alright. Installing NEW point sets hasn't solved the * problem.* Fellows have stated placing a piece of paper between the set of points not being adjusted is beneficial. I haven't read the Octane's tutorial you mentioned. That advisement most likely is there, too?

Here's another Shop Talk subject. Doesn't seem relevant though. A worn breaker cam shouldn't immediately affect the new points sets timing issue is my take on this. ??
viewtopic.php?t=6694



edit: EUREKA :oldies
Maybe this next/both tech blog is/are pertinent. An Incorrect advancer spec. assembly was mistakenly/PURPOSELY installed? The 1975 to1977 engines and 1978 to 1979 engines stamped on flywheel rim advance timing marks are different Check the carburetors" spec # and the centrifugal advancer number.
https://www.randakksblog.com/honda-gl10 ... #more-5081 <-- advancer unit information
https://www.randakksblog.com/early-vs-l ... b-specs-2/ <-- carburetor id charts

AND
โ€œPerformanceโ€ Ignition / Carb Combination for โ€™78-โ€™79 Honda GL1000 engines" NOTE: FULLY ACCOMPLISHED, A '75 to '77 CAMSHAFT IS SWAPPED IN TO REPLACE THE '78 TO '79 CAMSHAFT, TOO... THOSE DAMNED YANKEES :lol:
https://www.randakksblog.com/performanc ... #more-4653


" OEM Specs / Unit Identification

1975-1977 ENGINES::

Static initial timing: 5 degrees BTDC (โ€œFโ€ mark on crank)
Full advance: 37 degrees BTDC
Centrifugal Spark Advance Unit is marked โ€œ371โ€
Advance unit turns at camshaft speed = 1/2 crankshaft speed
Advance unit provides 32 degrees of dynamic advance (at crankshaft)
16 degrees of advance at the advance unit itself

1978-1979 ENGINES:

Static intial timing: 10 degrees BTDC (โ€œFโ€ mark on crank)
Full advance: 37 degrees BTDC
Centrifugal Spark Advance Unit is marked โ€œ431โ€
Advance unit turns at camshaft speed = 1/2 crankshaft speed
Advance unit provides 27 degrees of dynamic advance (at crankshaft)
13.5 degrees of advance at the advance unit itself "



NOT THAT? :(

I had requested the points baseplate photo to observe where its and the points housing adjusting notches were in relation to each other.
:shock: A thought :shock: the baseplate and its fixed position left points might be positioned off center in the points housing.? A not OEM specs aftermarket replacement points baseplate assembly? That's where photos might be the key for knowledgeable fellows to visually recognize where the *problem* lies.

My last thought was the center line of the advancer assembly, itself, was no longer concentric with the camshaft centerline.
Perhaps the stub shaft the advancer assembly is mounted on, and indexed to, is "bent."

I reckon with a helper to press the starter button and crank the engine over, you could get down to eyeball the end of the camshaft stub shaft for possible runout.

Why you inquire? :-?

If the left side cylinder head had been removed and not handled carefully :shock: the camshaft's advancer stub shaft might have been "bent", off center. ??

All of this rambling speculation may have some relevance to the "Split Timing" tech blog?
https://www.randakksblog.com/ignition-q ... #more-1037

I'm spent. Done. Best of luck to you, my Northern Ireland friend. anim-cheers1
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
Jaymz65
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#19

Post by Jaymz65 »

Hi Cliff. I sense your frustration. ๐Ÿ˜‚ but your input has been gratefully accepted. I have to say, if I had any hair left I would be pulling it out as well. I have already read a few of the posts you attached, thanks again. I am going to strip out the whole ignition system *again* and make sure all the parts are original. Haynes, by the way, is the British version of clymer, only better. Lol.
I don't think wear on the contact breaker shaft is likely as my bike is only showing 38,000mls and the compression test appears to back that up, but anything is possible. As I said before, it's back to the workshop for me, and I promise not to post again until I have this pain in the a** running like a rolex. Thank you again for taking the time to help.
Jim๐Ÿ‘
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gltriker
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#20

Post by gltriker »

Jim
๐Ÿ˜„ I got a good night's ๐Ÿ˜ด
I may come across too forcefully with all the RED letters. Sorry for that and the words about photos . The puzzle is very interesting to solve. Randakk has been a great source of information.


My hopeful expectation is, when the points baseplate is removed, the ignition advancer assembly variation number you will find stamped on the flyweights assembly is the incorrectly fitted 371, not the original factory fitted 431. The easy fix.
Not a difficult part to find here in the US . Let the Club know if you require one.

Both ignition advancer variations utilize similar, (perhaps identical ?), of the same breaker cam component, itself. I haven't studied for that detail yet. The ignition advancer base/flyweights assembly is where the static initial advance timing degrees specifications differ when comparing the 371 and 431 assemblies.

Another thought.

Find the engine ID number stamped into a raised pad on top of its crankcase to certify if it is correct for the 1979 GL1000 bike serial number. ๐Ÿค” The "Factory" , stamped - into - flywheel rim static initial advance timing marks are the focus there.

I (we) wait with bated breath for your single word report of successful discovery ๐Ÿ˜€
That single word would be--

EUREKA!!!

( I've found it! :oldies )
Last edited by gltriker on Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
Jaymz65
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#21

Post by Jaymz65 »

Hi Cliff. Absolutely no apology required. As I said I'm more than grateful for your input so keep it coming. ๐Ÿ˜‚
Didn't get a chance to hit the workshop today, hopefully tomorrow. I have previously removed the advance unit, but only to check it's function which was fine. I'm hoping it's got those wrong three numbers stamped on it. Lol๐Ÿ‘
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gltriker
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#22

Post by gltriker »

Jim,

I just located a Topic where an "early" production (1975-1977) GL1000 crankshaft's flywheel rim T=top dead center, F=static ignition timing mark and the dynamic full advance timing slash marks' unique placements scheme is displayed.

Also note the 1979 GL1000 crankshaft example timing slash marks' unique placements scheme is slightly different.

viewtopic.php?p=811755#p811755

Both build level crankshaft examples are physically and dimensional identical.
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
Jaymz65
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#23

Post by Jaymz65 »

Hi Cliff. Just a quick update. I stripped everything out and can confirm that the advancer is the correct one with the 431 designation stamped on it and that the shaft has negligible wear and runs true.
Here's the strange thing. I went out to it late last night with the intention of just tidying my work space before rebuilding the ignition system again. Turns out I couldn't leave it alone and ended up putting it all back together and I thought I might as well set the static timing again. As if by magic the timing light starts coming on with the F2 mark in almost the correct position. If you remember the light was coming on almost an inch before the timing mark. Anyway, I got a bit excited and tried the starter. She fired up immediately, and was running really well, not perfect but so much better than before.๐Ÿ˜ Here's were it all went downhill ๐Ÿ˜ญ.
In my excitement and tiredness I forgot that I hadn't fully tightened the points and worse, that I hadn't put the timing mark cover back on. So my elation was short lived when she started running like a pig again and when I looked down at the points engine oil was spraying everywhere. The lesson being, don't try rebuilding your ignition system at bedtime๐Ÿ˜ญ๐Ÿ˜ญ.
Anyway, when I get the oil cleaned up and the points reset properly I will report back. I think we could be almost there.๐Ÿคž
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gltriker
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#24

Post by gltriker »

Perfect ๐Ÿ™‚

You have studied the split รฌgnition timing phenomenon tech article?
https://www.randakksblog.com/ignition-q ... technique/
Cliff (74yrs ;) )

Keep your eyes and ears open and you'll learn something new, everyday. tumb2

New users please visit our "Shop Talk" for common tips and help: <---jdvorchak
http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/page/ST
^^^^^^^click up here^^^^^ :oldies

RE: a thorough fuel tank cleaning
"And your carbs will thank you. They no longer live down stream from a sewage plant." -gregforesi tumb2
"Can't see the paint when your looking thru the handlebars..........." -Oldewing ;)
"I'd rather Ride than Shine" -RAT tumb2 Me Too!!

Cliff

'75 GL1000 home built trike; http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=39996
October,2017 BOTM :shock: https://nakedgoldwingsclub.com/forum/page/Welcome

previous rides:
1953 H-D Servi-car, naked, 1969-1978 (serial#53G1559 committed to memory!)
1980 CB900 Custom (triked) 1997-2003 .... R.I.P.
cfairweather
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#25

Post by cfairweather »

gltriker wrote: โ†‘Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:11 am Perfect ๐Ÿ™‚

You have studied the split รฌgnition timing phenomenon tech article?
https://www.randakksblog.com/ignition-q ... technique/
This is an excellent explanation of the split timing phenomenon. The belt tension is also part of the problem and most people do not get this correct because they depend only on the springs to adjust the tension. Bad idea, unless you have new springs. The pulley marks need to perfectly aligned on the index lines or your valve timing won't be exact and the ignition timing is also affected. When you have the crank at 1TDC with the left camshaft pully "UP" on top, notice the left belt is slightly tighter than the left when properly adjusted. Now, turn the crank 360 degrees to where the left pulley has the "UP" on the bottom. The left belt will be slightly looser than the right belt. This inconsistent tension slightly affects the timing. The belt tension on one side helps counteract the pull from the other side. So, when you compare the belt tension to get both of them to the same tension, check one side and then turn the crank 360 degrees before checking the other side. The tension should be the same and the marks should be perfectly aligned. If you rely on old springs to do the job, your engine won't run optimally. You may be able to reduce the compromise needed in split timing by getting the belt tension more accurately adjusted.
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Re: 79 Goldwing ignition timing.

#26

Post by foolsgold »

Gl 1000 timing. I had similar problems with the lack of adjustment on the secondary contact breaker, making static timing a bit hit and miss, especially if you have set the contact breaker gap on the widest tolerance. What made the real difference was using the strobe. The Honda bomb sight glass makes this a lot easier. I found that closing one of the points taps a fraction brought the timing to spot on. The difference was remarkable. Conclusion the time the spark is produced is more important than dwell.
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