GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

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Fred Camper
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#61

Post by Fred Camper »

Why not put a second cross member 8 inches forward to allow the tank to sit back down and still provide enough steering head support. Your current location is fine for the steering head but not so good for the tank. Seems like you will want to tie the engine in at the 8 inch forward location anyway. But I do not have your vision for this build, so the idea is not okay to mess that up.
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#62

Post by AstroWing »

Today was my last day off for about a month. I get to think about how I'm gonna fix the tank.

At least I got it cut out enough to sit back were it belongs.



To answer a few questions.

I'm welding with a 110 Lincoln SP-135T using 75% argon.

Here is a picture showing the tubing I cut out and the tubing I am welding back on the frame.
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#63

Post by Greg »

Fred Camper wrote:Why not put a second cross member 8 inches forward to allow the tank to sit back down and still provide enough steering head support. Your current location is fine for the steering head but not so good for the tank. Seems like you will want to tie the engine in at the 8 inch forward location anyway. But I do not have your vision for this build, so the idea is not okay to mess that up.

If I understood you correctly, what you are suggesting will not provide the up and down flex support the frame will be going through . He needs the top tube to act as a girder, much like a Bridge Girder supporting the Bridges entire weight. The bikes frame is very similar to the design of a bridge. I could be wrong but that is the way I see it........

He can leave the top tube as he has it. Cut away the undeside of the tank ,form new under the tank sheet metal that straddles the top tube . Cutsom fit the tank to the frame and not the other way around.Me think.
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#64

Post by Fred Camper »

That makes sense Greg. If a second cross member was used, it would have to be tied to additonal structure and not just floating. Maybe the engine could have done that, but it would take more thought.
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1977 GL1000 BADDOG (April 2012 BOTM)
1976 LTD - '993 LTD...and so it begins'

You should remember that it's peace of mind you're after and not just fixing the machine. R.Pirsig
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#65

Post by AstroWing »

Hello Fred,

Thank you for the idea. I'm sure it would have been fine for the backbone tube to terminate at a crossmember several inches forward, then send the load from there down into the engine. If I had read your idea before I welded in the tube, that may have been enough to get me to change my plan that I had pictured from day one, I wanted the backbone tube to end at the point the tubes from the swing arm area weld at the top. My surprise came when those tubes ended at the back of the tank, not a few inches forward like I had imagined.

I look at frame modifications this way:
I imagine a chain hooked under the center of the engine pulling straight down. The resistance to that vertical load is the front and rear axles. I step back and imagine the load path and where the frame would bend or buckle. On this build, my plan began with my decision to use standard rear shocks angled to match the radiator down tubes. In my mind the load coming from the front, down the back bone needed a direct path to the swing arm bolt. Moving that little backbone crossmember even an inch or two forward of the down tubes in my mind would create a buckle point. I hadn't thought of sending the load into the engine from there, I was intent on sending it to the swing arm bolt.

Here is picture with a mockup tube taped in place from the motor up to the crossmember. It kinda worked out that it will be at the same angle as the forks. When I look at this side view and imagine the loads, I don't see any place that the frame could buckle.
Thank you for your input,

Gary
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#66

Post by AstroWing »

I knew this build would get more difficult when I decided that any visible elements of the frame would be parallel to the floor or be the same angle as the forks or radiator down tubes. I feel good that I accomplished that.

So, I put up my fab equipment, got out my stool and I'm studying that cool looking motor.

I see the water tubes on top of the engine going away, an aluminum radiator, a small alternator driven off the front of the crank, fuel injection? Maybe?

I was looking at some Jet Ski carbs that stand straight up, without floats. Anyone ever tried them? They have diaphragm fuel pumps right on the carb. I wonder if that would work on my GL?
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#67

Post by Roady »

Water tubes going away? This could get interesting. How will you supply coolant to the heads?
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#68

Post by AstroWing »

It looks like the hot water comes up from each head and is routed to the thermostat in the center. I am thinking out loud here, so I may change my mind at anytime.

I'm thinking of a plate that connects the intake ports and the water outlets. I could have the water outlet drilled round and threaded for stainless braid hose to a remote thermostat. Then up to the top tank of the radiator. I can use the same plate as a beginning for my intake manifold.

Does anyone know if that small water outlet at the thermostat housing is a bypass or an air bleed?
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#69

Post by Greg »

I look at frame modifications this way:
I imagine a chain hooked under the center of the engine pulling straight down. The resistance to that vertical load is the front and rear axles. I step back and imagine the load path and where the frame would bend or buckle. On this build, my plan began with my decision to use standard rear shocks angled to match the radiator down tubes. In my mind the load coming from the front, down the back bone needed a direct path to the swing arm bolt. Moving that little backbone crossmember even an inch or two forward of the down tubes in my mind would create a buckle point. I hadn't thought of sending the load into the engine from there, I was intent on sending it to the swing arm bolt.



That's not the only thing you have to concern yourself with, the weight of the engine pulling straight down. A Honda’s 125 cc frame will handle the weight of a GL motor without buckling.
Under riding conditions the force will not come just from one direction and why the frame needs to be quite stiff. If not, imagine putting wheels on an accordion and expect the accordion to follow a straight line. That's an extreme example I know ,but it is not far removed from what course (that of least resistance ) a flimsy built frame will take when you lay the bike over in a hard twisty when it’s a must that the rear tire is to follow the front one as a unit and at the same time.
My apologies for being so utterly unyielding with my input.
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#70

Post by AstroWing »

Hello Greg,

You and I agree that a motorcycle frame as viewed from above should not comply to a banana shape while cornering. I was kinda tired of typing earlier so I didn't go into the way I look at my builds from above. I think of a chain pulling my engine to the garage wall and both axles chained to the opposite wall. Sure, the wider the upper frame tubes are the stronger the frame will be laterally. When I cut out the stock Gold Wing tubes that went outside the gas tank, I replaced them with the same OD, chrome molly tubing and more than doubled the wall thickness. I also have some corner gussets planned in a few critical places. I am very comfortable that my GL frame, when done, will have equal or better lateral rigidity than before I started this project.

Thank you for keeping me on my toes.
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#71

Post by Greg »

If I managed to keep you on your toes, then you are welcome. It was my intent to be sincere and with the best intentions. Again, I apologize for being utterly relentless.
Best.
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#72

Post by Fred Camper »

Nice to see the engineering going into this frame build. I had not given a thought to how that top tube did more than support the steering head and your logic seems sound. Using the engine as an integral frame member may not be reasonable based on the design of the engine bosses. They may be unable to handle large inputs, as on my bike one broke on the PO and needed to be welded back on. Using the engine as a frame member would most likely require an engine designed to perform that way.
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1977 GL1000 BADDOG (April 2012 BOTM)
1976 LTD - '993 LTD...and so it begins'

You should remember that it's peace of mind you're after and not just fixing the machine. R.Pirsig
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#73

Post by bonneblktrk »

Agree with Fred Camper. These engines are not an "stressed member" of the frame design as in alot of modern sportbikes. The motor may prevent the tubes from spreading acting as a crossmember.
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#74

Post by Greg »

I agree.

If one was to look at those designs that incorporate the engine as structural support they will see that there is no space separating the mounting points of the engine from the mounting points on the frame. The lack of space between the two mounting points is what gives the required rigidity .The GL’s motor design (Flat ) will not lend itself for that type of consideration.
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Re: GL 1100 Cut, weld, wrench then ride

#75

Post by AstroWing »

Finally got a little time to do some work on the AstroWing. Gonna make my first attempt at an intake manifold. Will start with a template that I can cut flanges from.
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