Automotive Coilpack Coversion?

[FirstYearDeek]

I have two big arguments for electronic ignition on a Goldwing. More power to the plugs if you can eliminate the ballast resistor. This means better combustion, which means more power, better fuel economy, easier starts, more stable idle, etc. The second is more precise ignition timing is possible. Because the way the 1000 points cam works, you must get the timing close to the correct spot, but you cannot get it exact (see Randaak's split timing technique.) IGBTs are cheap, and if you can build the circuit, effective. IIRC, someone on a Megasquirt board posted a way to gut a Dodge coil pack and add the IGBTs to the base so that you could switch those with regular transistors. I cannot for the life of me find that post, though.

I'm with you on the timing thing. Even if you got the timing perfect you've still got the normal points-specific issues (chatter/mechanical dwell/etc) to deal with. An optical (my personal favorite) triggering method could make this a non-issue.

I do have to disagree on the "power to the plugs" argument. Coils that require ballast resistors are designed to function at lower voltages; as low as 6 or 7 volts in some cases, and even lower in the case of 6 volt starters on older cars/boats, etc. The voltage to the primary coil is largely irrelevant. When a magnetic field collapses, it's up to the secondary coil to generate the voltage.

It's really all about current limiting and preventing your coils from overheating. The reason you can (sometimes) eliminate the ballast resistor from the system when using electronic ignition systems is because they use IGBT's and therefore have current limiting built-in.

That being said; a given coil will generate a higher voltage spark with a higher voltage in the primary coil... this relationship is not linear, however, and most coils are designed to be at the peak of efficiency, which is near the peak of the charge saturation. What I'm saying is more voltage usually doesn't mean better spark. What it does mean is hotter coils and premature failure.

Of course we're talking about changing coils here, so I say find the sparkyest sparker you can find and buy Irridium spark plugs!

-Deek

[donspicer1]

http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/produ ... ?id=350487

I made a breadboard version of this, with good results, so far. I am curious if the board considers the transistor used here as appropriate to the task. One possible problem with this is, if the engine isn't running, and the points are closed, wouldn't the circuit be charging the coil continuously? I've been fiddling with a way to prove the engine is cranking, then power the circuit up. I'm certain my approach to this is naive, and would happily build anything we decide is better. I'll try it out, and share results, parts lists, anything I find out. It's a long cold winter up here, no wonder people from Maine tinker allot.

[puffy75]

Don: Do you have a Peak Voltage Tester? That will help you determain your out puts at the plug for your experiments.

[donspicer1]

I have a Fluke oscilloscope, it is similair to the current 120 series, and a digital thermometer.

[puffy75]

Does it measure voltage at 40,000 to 60,000 volts?

[donspicer1]

it doesn't seem to reach that high. I'll call fluke later, they might/probably have a shunt.

[alwing17]

I have been running 2 GM DIS coils on my Zonker for about 8 months,now w/a Dyna 3, I kept the stock resistor and the piggyback resistor in this setup. The GM coils ohm out @2.3 on the primary side. So far I have had nothing but sucess w/this setup! The GM coils put out about 70,000 volts. If you have a GM car with these coils,pull the wires off one of the coils and have someone crank the motor over..They will jump a 1 1/2 " gap. Anyone who is interested in seeing pics,I can e-mail them to you...I am not computer savvy,and haven't had very much luck in posting photos.

[LikeMike64]

Alwing17, please PM the pictures to me. I would like to see them.
Also, if it is okay with you, I will try to post to this thread for you too.

[OhioBill]

Pictures would be great.

[mooseheadm5]

I'm with you on the timing thing. Even if you got the timing perfect you've still got the normal points-specific issues (chatter/mechanical dwell/etc) to deal with. An optical (my personal favorite) triggering method could make this a non-issue.

I do have to disagree on the "power to the plugs" argument. Coils that require ballast resistors are designed to function at lower voltages; as low as 6 or 7 volts in some cases, and even lower in the case of 6 volt starters on older cars/boats, etc. The voltage to the primary coil is largely irrelevant. When a magnetic field collapses, it's up to the secondary coil to generate the voltage.

Agree on the optical trigger. Might be correct about the coil thing, but only if the bike's charging system can put out the nominal voltage that the coils require. Most early wings do not put out proper voltage at idle. They suffer from low voltage output at low engine speeds and the ignition system suffers because it is ballasted down to such a low voltage. Also, the ballast resistor is there to save the points. Dyna has you change the input voltage to the coils because there are no points to save. This does put more power to the ignition, as does bypassing the ballast resistor entirely on startup (which you need to do even when kicking it over.) The voltage in the secondary depends on the primary voltage, and when the primary voltage is not there, neither is the secondary. If they are wound to make 60kV at 6V input, then it should put out 70kV at 7V, but may overheat if it goes too high. If the input drops too low, then the output voltage may not be enough to fire the plugs. +1 on the iridiums.

[mooseheadm5]

Neon/Talon will be GM DIS systems. They require some pretty complicated signaling; something akin to a crank/cam position sensor.

I think that would only be if you don't have an ignition system to fire them. They are just coils and don't contain that much stuff in them IIRC. I do believe that getting coils with their own ignitors, especially "smart" coils (which take care fo their own dwell and only require a low-power switched signal to fire) are the way to go, but you would have to check the MS forums to find which coil packs are smart.

[FirstYearDeek]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were wanting to use the whole DIS system! Yes, the coils are just coils... If they spec close to the ones you're replacing then I say go for it.

Moose, I guess I didn't realize the stador was so weak on these machines that they would drop even at idle! I see why electronic ignitions are so popular now.

I have plans to fuel inject after next year's riding season and I'll need to add a crank trigger for that anyway so I was going to do it when I did the rebuild in the motor... Maybe I'll hunt down a multi-spark EDIS and use that (along with my MS) for just spark.

-Deek

[donspicer2]

system includes everything for goldwing ignition. there are two completely seperate ignition systems included, part of the 'gadget'. There's a bunch of successful project bikes listed at their website, that are identical to the goldwing in terms of engine size. I'm starting to have fairly good results from the standard carburation system. Is a somewhat - very somewhat - 'lumpy idle' a common characteristic?

[ElPiloto]

The Ford EDIS ignition is the best ignition solution for the Goldwing, in my opinion.

All you need to do is mount a 36-1 toothed wheel on the crank snout and fab a bracket to put the pickup close to the outside of the timing wheel. You can use the rest of the Ford stuff, the box and coilpack from a junkyard 4 cylinder Ford. You can use the Ford wheel or buy one from one of the many suppliers that sell them. You can mount the wheel on the camshaft if that's easier for you.

Do a Google search for Ford EDIS, or just EDIS, and you will get more information than you need.

I am going to use EDIS on my Goldwings with Megasquirt controlling it.

[sunnbobb]

Hey, I dig it when you guys talk this way. I'm looking forward to seeing a future "how to" on the subject.