Fitting Taper Roller Head Bearing to early models

[Old Fogey]

If you are fitting roller bearings to the steering on early models that were originally fitted with cup and ball type head races it is necessary to fit the grease retainer 53223-371-010 under the top bearing ( this fits all 75 -77 ) and to have a dust seal/grease retainer at the bottom.

Otherwise you lose the grease from the bearings ( remember, roller bearing by their very nature are open at the bottom and will not retain grease in the way the cup and ball bearing does ) and risk dirt getting in at the bottom.

The problem I came up against is that the seal shown here http://www.cmsnl.com/products/seal-head ... 214371010/
will only fit the bottom of the headstock on late '76 upwards. It is too big in outside diameter to fit the early'76 and '75s.
The original rubber oil seal will not do the job because its inner diameter is too big and does not seal the bearing.

My solution, after muuuuuuuuch thought, turned out to be easy and cheap.
First, make a large circle of thinnish alloy or steel sheet the diameter of the outside diameter of the headstock with a hole just big enough to slide all the way down the stem. As I had already bought the seal I just used that turned upside down.
Next goes on the original spacer washer and then the inner bottom bearing. Two 44.5x3 mm 'O' rings are then slipped over the bearing and around the spacer on top of one another. This is just enough to fill up the gap both in diameter and height without causing drag when the steering is turned.

Grease up the bearings and the 'O' rings, offer up the stem to the headstock, slip on the grease retainer with the channel side up, fill the channel with grease, fit the top bearing and adjuster nut and the top yoke (or bridge or triple clamp Wink ) and locknut

Job's a good 'un!

Please note that all Wings originally fitted with taper rollers OEM are fitted with the above part numbers right up to the last 1200.

One more tip. Don't use Molybdenum grease as use in CV joints. I had been greasing up the swing arm bearings with this so it was to hand, but it is too heavy for the steering bearings and causes a lot of drag.
I had to wash the bearings out, it was that bad!
I used a mixture of plain old LM grease and some graphite and it feels sooooo smooth and light to turn.

[SMLE]

So I have an early '76 that had ball bearings. I got the triple tree from a '77 that had roller bearings. I got everything except the cups or outer races. The '77 stem has the bottom cone bearing and all the bits that go below it. If I just get the outer races that go into the steering head am I good to go?

[AussieGold]

i have looked at all the posts i could find on this conversion, have emailed allballs and seen the need to have things machined to fit taper rollers,
have seen other info on this from pyramid parts and i have decided to replace mine with the original set up.
i am not convinced that i would be happy with a conversion that is just cobbled together. so, it is back to stock for me.

[J4BPX]

Have just replaced a pair of roller bearings in my 77 as part of a rebuild. It had obviously had the original ball bearings replaced by a dealer but they had a notch at straight ahead so needed replacing.
Getting the old races out was a pain especially the lower as it does not sit proud of the internal radius of the steering head tube (its internal radius is the same as the tube). I managed to shift it a mm by hammering a screwdriver head in between the top of the race where it sit against the head tube. I then took a steel ruler, which was part of adjustable right angle square and therefore very stiff, and bent one end over by 90 degrees about 3-4 mm from the end. This little 'lip' would slip into the gap I'd created between the race and the tube, and the ruler was then stiff enough and long enough for me to hammer out the race, slightly rotating the ruler in the tube between blows to keep the race squarish. The top race can be hammered out the same way but is easier to drive because it is proud of steering tube (its radius is smaller than the tube).
The top race goes back in easily because even when seated the top of the race sits above the top of the tube. Just use a block of wood when hammering to distribute the force and it stays straight. The bottom race is recessed so needs to be driven using a socket as a driver. I didn't have a socket big enough so I used the old race, wider side against the new race, so that once it's driven in you can pop the old race back out using the rule trick.
Some differences I noticed between versions that had the ball bearing instead of the taper bearings. If replacing a ball bearing version with taper - you need a thick washer (approx 5 mm) under the bottom taper bearing to get the correct spacing between the top and bottom taper bearings so that they sit correctly in the races when it is all tightened up. I don't know if this washer was a feature of the original ball bearing set up or was placed there when they were originally replaced on my bike. But it doesn't feature on my 80 donor bike..
Interestingly to drive the bottom taper bearing squarely down onto the top of the washer against the bottom part of the triple tree I found that the pump arm from my engine lift jack was the perfect diameter.
One last point to note. The grease seal that comes with the pyramid parts bearings needs to go below the washer and the taper bearings to seal the steering tube..
Enjoy

[SMLE]

FWIW; I used the All Balls set and it was a drop in conversion. No modification or additional parts needed. It has been in since September and works fine.

[J4BPX]

The observation on the thicker washer was made because I suspect that Honda changed the distance between the upper and lower race seating points in the steering tubes on later Gl1000 bikes. (I'm guessing this would not only simplify but the increased distance would increase the rigidity of the front forks(?)). Therefore the observation was that if you replace the bearings on an earlier bike you need the washer for the correct spacing. Later bikes may not need the washer. My parts list diagrams shows the extra washer / spacer under the taper bearings, and two washers under the ball bearings - but my 80 donor bike doesn't appear to have that washer and the taper bearings seem to be seated correctly.
Can any of the more knowledgeable members confirm this?

[calif wingnut]

You'll find your sizes needed here for all wings less 77-79 for some reason but they are All Balls 22-1020 which fits all 1100-1200-1500 and I believe 1800 ?

http://www.customfighters.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=22068

1977 was the first year for tapered bearings.

[calif wingnut]

So I have an early '76 that had ball bearings. I got the triple tree from a '77 that had roller bearings. I got everything except the cups or outer races. The '77 stem has the bottom cone bearing and all the bits that go below it. If I just get the outer races that go into the steering head am I good to go?

75-76 stem races are 1 15/16" OD while 77-79 are 2 3/16" OD so the 77 bearings/races will not work in a 75-76.

First pic is a 75 -2nd a 77.

[DET17]

I'm bumping this ancient thread since it is apropos to a task at hand in my restoration. My bike has the "notch" in the head bearings when she's turned straight ahead, and I know that means head bearings are dead or dying.

I have an 76 LTD.... no idea if that is an "early 76" or a "late 76". This thread indicates the early frames have the smaller bearings. I bought the bits & pieces based upon HondaNation parts fiche which listed a full set of these parts as replacements for the original (or that is what I surmised).

I bought this package of bearings, grease retainer and seal. I don't have the front triple out yet, but I wonder based upon this thread (and several others on NGW) that my LTD could be the early style and perhaps the full set of bearings I bought was actually for the 77+ models. Several threads indicate the early frames can be fitted with an ALL BALLS set of tapered rolling bearings, drop in or "with mods". Also, the race OD's of these bearings appear to be 55mm lower, 47mm upper.

Here are the pics showing P/Ns :




Do these P/Ns tell the story, and are all LTD's the same (early or late)? Sages, please weight in.

[pidjones]

Lower head bearings bear the brunt of potholes and such, plus support the weight. Upper bearings steady the head and support the front forks/wheel on rebound. Upper bearings seldom show wear other than from moisture, dirt, or lack of grease. You can replace the lower bearing with a roller and have more contact area while replacing the upper balls as original.

[DET17]

Lower head bearings bear the brunt of potholes and such, plus support the weight. Upper bearings steady the head and support the front forks/wheel on rebound. Upper bearings seldom show wear other than from moisture, dirt, or lack of grease. You can replace the lower bearing with a roller and have more contact area while replacing the upper balls as original.

True - the bottom bearing carries the deadload of machine and rider. A pair of tapered roller bearings can be preloaded to "share" more load between them.

My 76 LTD has a chassis date of 4/76, making it an early 76 by my guestimation. If anyone knows the actual breakpoint if infact the 76's changed mid year, it would be best to record it here for NGW posterity. Seems more likely that my set of bearings will not fit the constraints of my LTD frame, if the dimensions listed earlier in this ancient thread are accurate (referring to the 1 15/16" bore dimension listed earlier, roughly 49mm).

[Old Fogey]

I'm sure it's noted somewhere on here but the 75 and early 76 frames use the same bearings as the. CX500. No, I don't know at what point the frames changed in 76; probably when they ran out of 75 frames.

[DET17]

I'm sure it's noted somewhere on here but the 75 and early 76 frames use the same bearings as the. CX500. No, I don't know at what point the frames changed in 76; probably when they ran out of 75 frames.

OK. Sounds like I won't know for certain until I disassemble the triple tree and inspect bearings. I did find an ALL BALLS kit for the 75-76 machines, so I'll likely order that one and sell my 77+ bearing kit since it appears it won't fit my 4/76 LTD frame.