82 EFI Cafe Wing build

[Rednaxs60]

I remember your thread. Look forward to it progressing.

HA! Rednaxs60, I just relogged into the forum on speeduino.com after a year and saw this:
Screenshot 2024-08-14 at 1.44.30 PM.png

Not everywhere, but learning a lot.

[TheFieryMan]

Well I am getting started on the conversion process. I am also documenting the process on Youtube. You can check out the video when it goes live a bit later today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plKUBQt_Hgo

[Rednaxs60]

Good morning - looking froward to following your conversion thread.

Can you [provide more details as to the components, ECU, O2 sensor and such. Port or throttle body. If you are going to use the CFI runners, would expect port fuel injection. Can keep the wasted spark arrangement, and paired fuel injectors - only need a missing tooth crank trigger wheel - 36-1. Can install a cam shaft sensor for engine phase requirements, makes it easier on the ECU for engine timing and fuel injection - more exact. You would use a dual wheel trigger pattern if using Speeduino.

I have changed from a Speeduino interface board v0.4.4, worked well, but has some limitations that you have to work around. I now have a Spark Gap X4 from openlogicefi installed. I wanted a second Speeduino ECU for bench projects. Did a lot of research and this unit has all the bells and whistles I needed and was reasonably priced. Comes with a case and wiring harness connectors.

It has a dedicated fuel pump pin connection as wells a barometric sensor installed on the board. About the size of two decks of cards. First two pictures show the size of the case. The next picture shows the difference in board size and baro/MAP sensor (no baro sensor on the V0.4.4). The fourth picture shows the Spark Gap X4 board pin the case. It uses an Arduino Mega Pro instead of an Arduino Mega 2560 - much smaller in size. The last picture shows the difference in the OEM CFI ECU and the new Spark Gap X4 ECUs:

Spark Gap X4 Size - 1.JPG

Spark Gap X4 Size - 2.JPG

Spark Gap MAP Sensor.JPG

Spark Gap X4 - Internal.jpg

Old-New 3.JPG

The Spark Gap X4 makes it easy to transition to sequential fuel and ignition later on.

If you have a digital dash, take some initial signal measurements of the RPM signal required so that once you convert over, you can duplicate the required dash tach signal. I did not and now have to do some experimenting to get a dash tach signal, and to use the travel computer features.

Good luck.

[TheFieryMan]

Good morning - looking froward to following your conversion thread.

Can you [provide more details as to the components, ECU, O2 sensor and such. Port or throttle body. If you are going to use the CFI runners, would expect port fuel injection. Can keep the wasted spark arrangement, and paired fuel injectors - only need a missing tooth crank trigger wheel - 36-1. Can install a cam shaft sensor for engine phase requirements, makes it easier on the ECU for engine timing and fuel injection - more exact. You would use a dual wheel trigger pattern if using Speeduino.

I have changed from a Speeduino interface board v0.4.4, worked well, but has some limitations that you have to work around. I now have a Spark Gap X4 from openlogicefi installed. I wanted a second Speeduino ECU for bench projects. Did a lot of research and this unit has all the bells and whistles I needed and was reasonably priced. Comes with a case and wiring harness connectors.

It has a dedicated fuel pump pin connection as wells a barometric sensor installed on the board. About the size of two decks of cards. First two pictures show the size of the case. The next picture shows the difference in board size and baro/MAP sensor (no baro sensor on the V0.4.4). The fourth picture shows the Spark Gap X4 board pin the case. It uses an Arduino Mega Pro instead of an Arduino Mega 2560 - much smaller in size. The last picture shows the difference in the OEM CFI ECU and the new Spark Gap X4 ECUs:

Spark Gap X4 Size - 1.JPGSpark Gap X4 Size - 2.JPGSpark Gap MAP Sensor.JPGSpark Gap X4 - Internal.jpgOld-New 3.JPG

The Spark Gap X4 makes it easy to transition to sequential fuel and ignition later on.

If you have a digital dash, take some initial signal measurements of the RPM signal required so that once you convert over, you can duplicate the required dash tach signal. I did not and now have to do some experimenting to get a dash tach signal, and to use the travel computer features.

Good luck.

Great questions. I don't have most of the answers yet but I can tell you that I am planning on using the Ocelot board from WTMtronics.com https://wtmtronics.com/product/ocelot/. It seems to be everything I will need for this. I am also not planning to go wasted spark as the Ocelot can run 4 dedicated injector and ignition channels which should be perfect for going full sequential fuel and ignition. But I am just learning so please check out the specs and let me know if I am missing something about that unit which would prevent it from being able to do that. I want to make everything as simple as possible while also giving maximum adjustability to the programing.

For injection I had bought intake runner elbows from an 85 that have provisions for injectors but honestly I really hate how injectors will looks sticking out the top of the runners with wires and fuel rail and everything. I think it ruins the smooth lines of the intake runners. I was planning on somehow integrating injectors for each cylinder into the intake plenum or runners in a different way but I think this would require mounting them either from the bottom at an angle or some other orientation. I'm assuming that this will inhibit the functionality of the injectors but I don't know. Im researching that now.

There are a bunch of other questions I need answered which is why I'm so thankful for all of you who have way more experience than I do.

[Rednaxs60]

Great questions. I don't have most of the answers yet but I can tell you that I am planning on using the Ocelot board from WTMtronics.com https://wtmtronics.com/product/ocelot/. It seems to be everything I will need for this. I am also not planning to go wasted spark as the Ocelot can run 4 dedicated injector and ignition channels which should be perfect for going full sequential fuel and ignition. But I am just learning so please check out the specs and let me know if I am missing something about that unit which would prevent it from being able to do that. I want to make everything as simple as possible while also giving maximum adjustability to the programing.

For injection I had bought intake runner elbows from an 85 that have provisions for injectors but honestly I really hate how injectors will looks sticking out the top of the runners with wires and fuel rail and everything. I think it ruins the smooth lines of the intake runners. I was planning on somehow integrating injectors for each cylinder into the intake plenum or runners in a different way but I think this would require mounting them either from the bottom at an angle or some other orientation. I'm assuming that this will inhibit the functionality of the injectors but I don't know. Im researching that now.

There are a bunch of other questions I need answered which is why I'm so thankful for all of you who have way more experience than I do.

Speeduino ECUs - the Ocelot is a good ECU and will do everything you want to do. I chose the Spark Gap X4 for a few reasons, but mostly economics. Came with a case and wiring harness connector. It has a built in barometric sensor, a dedicated fuel pump pin, and a few other items. The Ocelot is based on the Speeduino v0.4.4 interface board. Engine tuning will be similar to what I have been doing.

Sequential fuel/ignition operation requires a camshaft sensor. You will need to find a place for one.

To keep the install simple would recommend using an '85/'86 CFI air plenum, and fuel rails - will make for an easier install.

The fuel injector holders are made this way so that you have port fuel injection - fuel injector sprays almost directly on the cylinder intake valve.

The look of the install can be such that covers to hide the fuel injectors can be used. This would be similar to the CFI covers on the '85/'86 FI models.

What ignition units would you use for sequential ignition?

Have you decided on the crank and camshaft sensor type. Recommend a Hall effect sensor.

Have nay other questions/queries, ask away. Cheers

[TheFieryMan]

I originally thought about using the whole efi system from a 85-86 but then I realized that it kind of defeated my original purpose of doing a custom conversion. I kind of want to do it more custom than that. I agree that using at least the runner elbows with the existing injector ports would be way easier but I want to try something different I think. My research is showing that as long as the fuel pressure is correct and decently strong, I should be able to hide the injectors a bit more by tucking them under the runners. I just hope there is enough room. I'm going to start doing some cardboard aided design tomorrow I think.

I'm hoping to go with a Bosch setup for the ignition but I may also try to go a bit cheaper with something from an existing vehicle. I've seen some use GM coils and others using VW or Mazda coils. I'm not sure yet which direction I will go.

I am planning to run both crank and cam sensors with hall sensors. I will probably also try to go with an in-tank fuel pump so that I can possibly use the stock fuel pump location for a custom cam sensor location but I think it makes the most sense to put them both under the timing belt cover. Lots of possibilities.

[Rednaxs60]

Understand what you want to do. You might want to consider buying/procuring the CFI system from an'85/'86 just in case a Plan B is required. Another consideration is installation of the throttle plate(s), TPS and idle air control (IAC) system.

Fuel pressure does not mean that fuel injector spray will go the "distance". The ECU determines the fuel injector pulse width (PW). The shorter the PW, the less fuel injected, the longer the PW, the more fuel injected. Fuel pressure is generally associated with the size of the fuel injector.

Fuel pressure can result in a reduced fuel injector sizing. For example, the OEM CFI fuel injectors are rated at 284 or 315 cc/min depending on the service shop. These figures are at 41/43 PSI fuel pressure (3 bar). The fuel pressure for my installation is 40 PSI so I use the 315 cc/min flow rate. If I were to use the same fuel injectors at the OEM CFI fuel pressure of 28 to 32 PSI, these fuel injectors would be derated to approximately 260 cc/min. The ECU required fuel (RF) would be calibrated to suit this new fuel injector sizing.

Fuel pressure has nothing to do with the placement of the fuel injectors; however, placement of the fuel injectors should be such that the fuel injector discharges on or as close to the cylinder intake valve as possible. You might not want a fuel injector discharge to be shared with another cylinder.

Ignition setup - I use the 4-channel Bosch 211 coil driver for sequential ignition, working well. Use COP units from a Ford. You can take these apart and use as coil near plug (CNP) installation as well, don't have to be out front and centre. Probably $100.00 USD for the COPs and coil driver. I got this idea from socrace's thread.

I would use the OEM fuel pump position for the cam sensor input. Have viewed some EFI conversion threads where the cam and crank sensors were under the timing belt covers, this installation of the cam sensor is good but may not fit your install.

I believe socrace used an in-tank fuel pump. Check out his thread. You will need to operate the fuel pump through a fuel pump relay.

If you use the OEM CFI fuel injectors for sequential fuel, you will need to have a resistor for each fuel injector circuit. This resistor pack can be installed under the seat secured to the rear fender. I use 6 ohm resistors per circuit.

[Rednaxs60]

As I have mentioned, interesting project and lots to consider. Watched the YouTube video again, cleared up a lot of my questions and what you want to achieve.

You will not have to bench test this project. Once you have the components installed, wired and connected to the ECU, the engine will start. I have read a lot of posts regarding bench testing a concept, and find that most bench projects do not come to fruition, or are not being reported as being installed and operating.

I have mentioned that the Honda fuel injector holders are designed for port fuel injection - fuel injector sprays directly at and onto the cylinder intake valve. The intake valve heats up quicker than the rest of the cylinder head, better fuel atomization and fuel puddling is eliminated. Easier to tune the engine.

An ITB setup replaces the carburetor, but has the same limitations as a carburetor setup in that you cannot direct where the fuel is going and if the correct amount of fuel gets to a respective cylinder (lean/rich fuel condition). Fuel puddling is still in play, cold engine starts are more challenging to tune for.

Moving the fuel injector further back into the intake plenum for a design look is going to be an ITB installation. The fuel injectors are on the upstream side of the throttle plates reducing the effectiveness of the fuel injector(s). You will notice that the fuel injector holders are downstream of where you will install the throttle plates. This allows for better fuel injector operation.

The intake plenum pressure will probably be at atmospheric pressure. This is significantly different from the cylinder MAP at the intake valve. This will probably require you to use an Alpha-N (AN) fuelling profile. This is probably the reason the it is reported that AN is used more in ITB setups than SD.

The primary difference between SD and AN fuelling profiles is that the SD fuelling profile uses MAP, and the engine MAP is in a constant state of change, higher/lower as the engine load changes.

The AN fuelling profile that uses the TPS for engine load is not in a constant state of change. On initial engine start and operation, the change in air volume into the engine cylinders is greatest. After initial throttle opening, the volume of air admitted to the engine cylinders is starting to be a constant amount. There is very little fluctuation in the air volume.

Honda uses SD and AN in its CFI systems. The '82 CX500T and '83 CX650T use both the SD and AN fuelling profiles. SD for idle and low powers, switching to AN fuelling profile at higher powers and for boost.

The 1200 GW FI models use both as well. For all power ranges when the CFI system is operating correctly, SD fuelling profile is used. When the PB (MAP) sensors are faulty or have failed, the ECU switches to an AN fuelling profile for get home functionality.

Using the MAP sensor to for the engine tune when the fuel injectors are upstream of the throttle plates can probably be done, but you will not be able to “guarantee” that the fuel being injected will reach the cylinder in question. The further the fuel has to travel to get into the engine cylinder, the less probable that the correct amount of fuel will be getting to the engine cylinder.

Fuel atomization is another issue. The intake plenum, or points upstream of the throttle plates will not be hot enough to provide good fuel atomization.

Calibrating the Ignition timing table with an AN fuelling profile is more challenging as well. The greater/more air being drawn into the engine cylinder reduces the amount of advanced ignition timing required.

Just a few thoughts on your project. Port fuel injection is superior to ITB fuel injection; however, your project definition and expectations are determining factors.

[Rednaxs60]

You are considering a new wiring harness for your install. McGovern61 on Classic GWs used a fuse box from a 1200 FI model and completely rewired his 1100 (I think). The thread is quite comprehensive and there are wiring diagrams. The 1200 FI fuse box has 6 relays and lots of fuses for an install. Could be of interest.

[TheFieryMan]

The plan is to do a single throttle body above the intake Plenum. Also for the injectors, they will probably only be an inch or two further away from the intake valves than the 85 86 OEM injector locations, but they definitely won't be firing straight down onto the valves. They will probably be at an upward angle of about 30-35 degrees.

[Rednaxs60]

This is mcgovern61 thread on "Rebuild '82 Standard Wire Harness and Fuse Box": https://classicgoldwings.com/threads/re ... ost-177401

Cheers

[Rednaxs60]

Don't know if you've seen these threads on the Speeduino forum: https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... i+Concours and https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... ion+timing

May be of interest. Cheers

[Rednaxs60]

Good morning. How's the initial project stage going? Working on mine and how to balance the engine cylinders came to mind because I decided to check the cylinder bank balance. The '85/'86 FI models can balance the cylinder banks - left/right. You are not able to balance the cylinders of a cylinder bank - cylinders 1/3 or 2/4, unlike the carb models. This is because of the cylinder vacuum. Cylinders 1/3 are joined together, cylinders 2/4 are joined together. The FI models have an adjusting screw on the throttle linkage for this. Just a thought/consideration. Cheers