Valk Redo

[Jeff K]

I assure you I have my "condescending" font turned off. I don't intend to seem holier than thou. I admit I was ticked off at first, but I'm over that. I'm only here to offer help. Need valves? I have boxes of them, need heads? I have 3 sets stock to wild. Need experience? I have that too. Don't need or want any of that? I'm OK with that too.

[sgwilly]

I, hereby, stand down. Those are very generous and gracious offers. I'm just wondering where's my ride invite on one of those beefy sleds.

[polkadot]

I, hereby, stand down. Those are very generous and gracious offers. I'm just wondering where's my ride invite on one of those beefy sleds.

You will have a ride invite if I can get the beast running. And I will! Ok guys, so here is the deal. I may have caused some problems with my bike needlessly, but I can live with that. I have done it before and will probably do it again. I try to do everything myself and enjoy the learning experience and the Journey itself. I would rather make these mistakes while trying than just let the pros do it for me. Even if this cost me some more parts, I am ahead of the game. So, on to the task at hand. (Part of my problem is that I have just not had a big block of time to take care of the bike) Yes I know I should have rechecked the timing first, but I have had the bike RUNNING, so I figured I could not do more harm. Anyway, since the timing marks line up, I figure that either the damage was done in the accident or the cam is off one rotation. Or is there another possibility? If that is the case, when I take off that belt, can I just rotate that cam one revolution (seems to me this may cause problems in and of itself)? Or is there another way to do it? I know this is basic stuff for you guys, but new to me. Thanks for all the help!

[Jeff K]

The cam can not be 180 off if the "up" marks, all 4, are right side up. The cam turns one time for every two rotations of the crankshaft. So, the cams don't care which top dead center stroke the crank is on, it only matters that both cams are in time with each other, and the crank is in time with them. So, if the notch on the crank is lined up, and both cams say "up", not one one saying "up" and the other saying "Ԁ∩" (funny how an upside down Up looks like a dn) and the ups are perfectly horizontal with each other, then everything is in time.
The next step I would take is to pull the valve cover. Pull the cover and rotate the crank by hand. Turn it till a cylinder has both valves go closed. then check the clearance. If one or more of the valves on that cyl has an enormous amount of clearance, and is not even close to spec, it is most likely bent. No need to adjust it, if it has a big gap, it's because the valve can't close. Just keep rotating the crank until each cylinder closes both vales, check all three cyl.

Never, ever, turn the motor or cam without the belt on unless you run the adjusters all the way out on all the valves.

[Oldewing]

Never, ever, turn the motor or cam without the belt on unless you run the adjusters all the way out on all the valves.

that there is some gospell now.

[polkadot]

Ok, so here are the pictures of my original timing set. I thought I did it "by the book"

[Jeff K]

That's all good. It was like that right from the start? I'm mean after the incident?
I'm just trying to understand what happened.
When you get a chance to pull the valve cover it may provide a clue.
I just don't see how anything bad happened if the motor never turned while out of time.

I'd Pop the cover and take a look. I've seen impact damage cause cam trouble before, but the impact damage looked more severe than yours.

[ericheath]

I thought on a four cylinder that you could get one cam 180 off. Iirc others have done it hurrying on roadside repairs and others have done it to try and make them fire two cylinders at once. It would be freakishly odd that it could get off that much from an accident. Maybe the sixes are not the same as the fours

[polkadot]

That's all good. It was like that right from the start? I'm mean after the incident?
I'm just trying to understand what happened.
When you get a chance to pull the valve cover it may provide a clue.
I just don't see how anything bad happened if the motor never turned while out of time.

I'd Pop the cover and take a look. I've seen impact damage cause cam trouble before, but the impact damage looked more severe than yours.

Hello, my name is ernie and I am an IDIOT! All this time I have refused to believe that the timing was off. It appears that it is not. BUT, here is what happened. I got the bike back from the shop. I turned the key and it was dead. Something was amiss in the wiring. I figured that I could work on that while the parts were on order. I went thru their list and compared them with the Honda fische. I tried to figure out all the parts I would need so that I could get them all on order. I removed the timing belts to check out the cam sprocket. Sure enough it was broken. I removed it and the other broken parts and placed my order. Days later, I had some spare time, so I decided to take a look at the bike. I realized that on the Valk there are two wires that follow behind the right cam shield. I did not look at the wiring diagram but I think one must have been to the neutral safety switch. One of those wires was cut and the other frayed. I took my time and repaired them. How do you suppose I found out if that was the problem? Of course, I turned it over with no belt connected to the right cam sprocket! AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH. Did I mention that I am an idiot? Ok, so explain to a guy that does not know beans about this what I did. I must have turned it about an even revolution (or multiples I suppose, I really cant say because I had no idea that I was making such a mistake) because when I put the belts back on, the timing wheels were near perfect in line. After I got the parts, I put the timing belts back on, lined up the marks and the had to adjust the right cam only a notch or so. When I get a chance, I will remove the valve cover and explore the carnage. Got to go now, I am late for my IA meeting. (Idiots Anonymous) Thanks, ernie

[roncar]

Ernie, don't be too hard on yourself. I'm a firm believer that we learn from mistakes more so than doing it right. Sometimes those mistakes are costly and sometimes just messy or wasteful (ever forget to reinstall the timing inspection cap? Or do a rapid engine flush because you forgot to reinstall the oil drain plug?) Learning from others mistakes is usually the cheapest.

There is a possibility that the 'damage' happened during the accident and nothing you did made any difference. We, however, will never know now. I have personal experience where the camshaft pulley was broken on impact, engine running, and nothing was messed up internally. That, from what I've read, is the exception and not the rule.

With 0 compression on that side, just hope it is bent valves and not 'holed' pistons.

I of course have 'zero' experience on Valks, so pay close attention to what the Valk owners here and on the Valk forum tell you. They can probably save you time and money.

[Oldewing]

Welcome to the club Erine,

next month it's your turn for snacks................



Greg(Member in Good standing, Past President,Central Ohio Chapter 6969)Jones

[sgwilly]

Ok, so here's what you did when spinning the engine with one of the cam belts off.

Remember, these are "interference engines". That is an engine design that puts the valves into the same space that the pistons occupy - just at different times. Why would you want to do that? It's a high performance thing.



The diagram on the left is a "non-interference engine". The valves NEVER go where the pistons go.
The diagram on the right shows an "interference engine" where the valve and piston can impact each other. This can't occur if the camshafts are properly aligned with the crankshaft. But when a belt breaks (or isn't on) and the crankshaft spins - it's gonna happen.

When it does happen you end up bending the valves or even punching a hole in the piston head. That's not going to happen to every valve on that bank - just the one's that were held open by the cam when you spun the engine. Here's what a head from a car that suffered a timing belt failure looks like. Those valves will never close again.



Here's what the valves look like when taken out entirely.



Some day I should tell you about my first disk brake job (it involved the use of a baseball bat and a 3 lbs sledge), or the time I didn't put oil back in my Dad's Subaru, or ...

Well, you get my point. We've all been there.

[polkadot]

Welcome to the club Erine,

next month it's your turn for snacks................



Greg(Member in Good standing, Past President,Central Ohio Chapter 6969)Jones

Good to hear from you Greg! Do I pay my dues directly to you? And yes I have left the timing cover off prior to turning the key! I will pull the cover when I get a chance and see what she looks like. I will post more then. Had a heart to heart with my wife the other nite and we decided not to give up the bikes.

[Rat]

GOOD NEWS ERN.

Gord

[polkadot]

Some day I should tell you about my first disk brake job (it involved the use of a baseball bat and a 3 lbs sledge).

LOL! I just hope that its valves and not a piston(s)! If all the cylinders have 0 compression wouldn't that mean that I got all the valves? (I do like to be through!) What a great learing experience. After all this I will some day be able to look at a guy and say "you know, you never EVER turn the crank with out the timing belt connected, right? In fact, I think I can see the expression on my face now when I say it. I then will just walk away and maybe shake my head a bit. Anyway, until then, I will keep everyone informed and entertained!