Hydraulic clutch woes

[sphen]

I’ll check on that today when I pull the basket apart.

It is still kinda escaping me exactly how the throw out mechanism is supppsed to work - ie where the contact and movement is made. I feel like something is missing.

[sphen]

Current spring plate orientation.

Plates are not stuck.

I’m officially out of ideas here. Maybe I should just eBay another assembly and see what happens

49F1DFD2-EDB4-4E66-95AA-402D40D488D7.jpeg

[flyin900]

OK I think your backwards on the clutch rode orientation in the pictures I can see from the beginning of the thread. From the FSM clutch repair section on the GL1200 the clutch rod orientation has the thicker section of the rod towards the engine and thinner section to the slave cylinder. I think you are backwards from what I can see on your enclosed pictures.

There is a minimum spec for the height of the clutch spring of 5.5mm from a level surface to the top of the spring arc in the center of the spring opening. Something that is worth checking too.

[sphen]

OK I think your backwards on the clutch rode orientation in the pictures I can see from the beginning of the thread. From the FSM clutch repair section on the GL1200 the clutch rod orientation has the thicker section of the rod towards the engine and thinner section to the slave cylinder. I think you are backwards from what I can see on your enclosed pictures.

I think you are referring to this:

F8E2038C-F6C3-4055-8DC8-7E4EF61D138E.jpeg

I kinda panicked when I saw that too, but if you keep reading, I think the photo is wrong:

8187C4EB-FA9A-4F4D-BBB2-355919B8B12C.jpeg

The other photos I’ve seen show the larger end being on the SS piston side. Shrug...

There is a minimum spec for the height of the clutch spring of 5.5mm from a level surface to the top of the spring arc in the center of the spring opening. Something that is worth checking too.

8BC59013-0C54-4575-B0CD-83B80C80B445.jpeg

Like this? Kinda hard to tell in the photo but it’s close to 6mm at the inner edge, which would be higher at the center “arc”...?

To beat the dead horse: what exactly is the lifter rod supposed to push against? There’s the protrusion out the back of the bearing, but it is fixed and once that bearing is bottomed in the center of the pressure plate, it can’t go any further. Where is the motion supposed to be? Is my question making sense? If not maybe I can post a video walkthrough somehow.

Tks!!

[Lucien Harpress]

IF I remember correctly and IF it works like my 1000, that rod pushes that entire star shaped plate. It's bolted to a plate at the other end of the clutch (deeper in, forward on the engine), which is pushed forward, separating the friction plates enough to disengage them. It's relatively simple, but not super intuitive.

[sphen]

IF I remember correctly and IF it works like my 1000, that rod pushes that entire star shaped plate. It's bolted to a plate at the other end of the clutch (deeper in, forward on the engine), which is pushed forward, separating the friction plates enough to disengage them. It's relatively simple, but not super intuitive.

that makes some sense, though unintuitive as you said. i'll mock it up on the bench so i can see for myself. tks!

ive ordered an entire assembly off ebay, if only to try an alternate unit for comparison before im forced to take it to someone who knows what theyre doing...

...and also because the pressure plate ring went flying on removal, never to be seen again

[sphen]

IF I remember correctly and IF it works like my 1000, that rod pushes that entire star shaped plate. It's bolted to a plate at the other end of the clutch (deeper in, forward on the engine), which is pushed forward, separating the friction plates enough to disengage them. It's relatively simple, but not super intuitive.

SO on that note, i'm assuming that the rear plate pushes out against the spring plate, and the 2 halves of the clutch pack separate slightly. The question becomes, in order for those friction plates to easily separate, they need to not be particularly 'sticky' with each other, right? Asking bc on mine they arent stuck together real bad, but there is some amount of effort needed to separate them by hand - not a lot, but it may matter if we need them to release easily when the pressure is off...?

do they need more oil on them, or perhaps old age is setting in?

[sphen]

So I got an 85 clutch assembly of the bay. Apparently In 85 the plate/basket layout was a little different (see photo). Not a big deal- mostly needed the small parts for spares.

Still not sure what’s next - would it be of any use to get new plates? Barring that I may have to tote this engine over to a shop somewhere and get some professional help.

86 on left 85 on right

58FC3F6A-B357-4DB8-B4B2-94EDC23B1CD3.jpeg

[sphen]

Something else i'm pondering: if you look at the fiche https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda ... ade/clutch

there are 2 things of note. 1) there are disk a and disk b, and plate a and plate b. i'm pretty sure i kept everything in order when i rebuilt, but what are the differences (particularly with the disk b up front)?

2) the fiche shows fewer plates and disks being used then what are on the bike and what are sold in the kits - is that just for clarity in the diagramme, or do i have too many plates packed in there? (i'll double check the manual when i get back to the shop this evening...)

[julimike54]

In looking at a parts list http://classicgoldwings.com/forum/galle ... e_id=17320 it appears that the actual number is omitted for clarity. The manual does state the number required http://classicgoldwings.com/forum/galle ... e_id=31091 and the overview page shows the entire exploded view http://classicgoldwings.com/forum/galle ... e_id=31079

I didn't notice a 'plate b', but there are 2 part numbers for 'plate a', 'disk b' evidently must be something different because it uses a different part number (maybe teeth vs. not). Since I haven't had one apart I'm not of much help.

Rednaxs60 (member here) might be able to shed some light on this since he's just rebuilt his engine.

Question, does your clutch basket look like the '85? Are the plates and disks original parts?

[Rednaxs60]

Interesting read, and I've looked at the fiche. First things, the clutch lifter rod goes in narrow end to engine, larger end to slave, otherwise oil is going to come out through the oil seal. The push rod is to force the clutch pressure plate at the back of the clutch basket out, releasing the pressure on the friction plates and steel plates, disengaging the clutch - same principle as a car. The spring plate that is mentioned - #10 in the fiche - is what keeps the clutch pressure plate against the clutch plates unless pressure is exerted by the pressure side of the system.

Clutch plate B is a damping plate that consists of springs sandwiched between two steel plates using brass rivets to keep the assembly together. The brass rivets wear over time and can self destruct. It's the same clutch plate B for the 1500. There have been threads about "Bin the Plate" because this plate has self destructed. I looked into this mod, installed the two steel plates in lieu of, but did not like the fit - found a new clutch plate B and installed it.

The clutch spring is quite robust and just compressing it once should not have affected it. I wasn't the gentlest when I replaced my clutch.

For my money, it's the pressure system from the clutch MC to the slave cylinder. The older OEM rubber hoses degrade over time and a lot of the system pressure can be used up when the rubber hoses expand, and these do. You didn't mention if you rebuilt the slave cylinder, but from reading your thread I would think so.

You mention that when you have the clutch system buttoned up you can hear movement in the system. Should work.

Having mentioned the above, hard to say what is the issue. Doing too many things at once and when it starts to operate properly, won't know what was the issue; however, can't keep taking the engine out of the frame. I would make sure the clutch is together correctly, and put back in the engine. Button up the system and find out how it works. Since you have rebuilt the MC and slave, I would replace the OEM clutch rubber hoses, good maintenance issue as well.

Not a lot to this system, and it sounds like not enough pressure is being exerted on the clutch pressure plate by the pressure side of the system. If it is not being pushed away from the clutch plates, the clutch will not disengage.

Good luck.

[sphen]

Question, does your clutch basket look like the '85? Are the plates and disks original parts?

no, mine is the normal 86-87 basket (on the left in the photo - the 85 on the right i bought for spare parts sans plates). The plates and disks are original. This bike has 33k miles on it, so as a theme i've seen not much mileage wear, but age/parked wear...the plates measure well within spec.

Not a lot to this system, and it sounds like not enough pressure is being exerted on the clutch pressure plate by the pressure side of the system. If it is not being pushed away from the clutch plates, the clutch will not disengage.

Good luck.

Thanks to both of you for the input - i really needed some feedback on this! Rednaxs60 - i think you have a point. i assumed bc i could hear motion, the hydraulics were ok. BUT, now that you mention it, when i pull the MC the line jumps quite a bit - maybe a lot of energy is being lost for reasons you stated.

The MC is new, the SS has been rebuilt (couldnt find a new one, so i bought a couple off ebay until i found one with a bore size in spec). The lines are...well...old and tired.

Here's the thing - i'm unlinking the brakes and using a lower handlebar, so i need custom length lines, but i dont know yet what those lengths will be. So, i think i need to learn how to make my own lines & fittings (or find a new short length of premade for testing), or find some DIY kit so i can at least fashion up something to test this with. What do you recommend?

[Rednaxs60]

Thanks to both of you for the input - i really needed some feedback on this! Rednaxs60 - i think you have a point. i assumed bc i could hear motion, the hydraulics were ok. BUT, now that you mention it, when i pull the MC the line jumps quite a bit - maybe a lot of energy is being lost for reasons you stated.

The MC is new, the SS has been rebuilt (couldnt find a new one, so i bought a couple off ebay until i found one with a bore size in spec). The lines are...well...old and tired.

Here's the thing - i'm unlinking the brakes and using a lower handlebar, so i need custom length lines, but i dont know yet what those lengths will be. So, i think i need to learn how to make my own lines & fittings (or find a new short length of premade for testing), or find some DIY kit so i can at least fashion up something to test this with. What do you recommend?

Unlinking the brakes, and people comment on a CT. Notwithstanding, I expect you want the two front calipers to work off the front brake lever and the rear brake only for the rear. People have done this, but new fittings will be required to do the front. The rear can be kept the same, just plug the hole for the line to the front right caliper. Myself, I find the brakes quite good as designed.

You also know that the front right caliper pistons are smaller than the left front or rear brake calipers. The caliper piston size are the same for the front left and rear calipers. The front right caliper pistons are smaller because of the linked brake design.

You should be able to have a hydraulic shop make you new lines. When you lower the bars, use the old lines and mark the length you need.

The clutch line is a bear, mainly because there is a join in the line under the coils, not a lot of room to work. The line from this join to the clutch slave is a steel line so should be good. Only a small length from this steel line to the slave is rubber. I replaced this line with a SS line - easy to route, as well as the one from the clutch MC to the join. All brake lines done too.

The brake line from the rear brake MC has a join in this area as well.

Just a few thoughts. Cheers

[sphen]

Unlinking the brakes, and people comment on a CT.

What is "CT"?

I've discussed unlinking brakes at length on here in other threads, and wont rehash and/or hijack this thread with it here.

I was thinking more about doing away with the hard lines altogether - run full length braided line front to back as needed (clutch). is this a bad idea? I realise i would have to creatively reroute it around the frame.

I think i have the fittings sorted out - trying to use banjo where possible (double banjo for the linked fronts/plugged one port on the rear MC and put a banjo on the other.

Anyways, the issue remains that i need a good known brake line to test the clutch - was wishing i could cobble somethign together or get a short ready made one at the local auto parts, but it doesnt look like thats possible. (and the DIY kits are pricey)

And honestly, until i know the clutch is gonna work, i dont wanna drop a bunch of money on braided lines (further complicated by the fact that i dont know yet how long to order them in...kinda chicken vs egg problem lol

EDIT: reckon this would suffice for a clutch test before i proceeed: https://www.amazon.com/HIAORS-Stainless ... ve&sr=1-35

[wingrider]

Most likely, a CT is using a car tire on the rear of the bike. Also known as the dark side.....