'85 1200 won't turn over by hand.

[John Schmidt]

I have a line on what appears to be a good '85 short block, but I decided to take a $39 gamble on a set of used pistons. Rec'd. them today and they look real good but the rod bearings are no good, looks like the pistons were cleaned with some harsh chemical and it messed up the bearings. The short block is $225 and only 65 miles away, but thought I'd first gamble on the $39 for a set of four used pistons. My main problem now is I can't tell the rod ID, the markings on the base only faintly show an "E" but can't make out anything else. What would your suggestions be for determining the rod ID for replacement inserts. I see Std. sizes are no longer available from Honda, not sure with ~62k on them and nearly 40k on my current crank/engine the Std. size would be sufficient anyway. I was thinking of polishing one bearing with some 2000 grit to clean off the surface a bit, then use some plastigage. I'm open to ideas here but sure don't want to mess up the surface of the crankshaft.

UPDATE: I may have spoken too soon. I got out my trusty magnifying glass and I can make out 2E on two of the rods, I already know how the crank journals are marked. And, after removing the caps and cleaning the inserts good with some light solvent then oiling them with motor oil and rubbing it on good, three of the four bearings appear to be reuseable. By that I mean no signs of overheat or what I would call inconsistent surface wear. I think I'll just check clearance and put it together. If it fails I cross that bridge when it happens.

[alwing17]

I wouldn't mess w/the crank...The only way you are going to fit undersized bearings is if you have the crank turned. The difference in the bearing sizes is on the journal end (crank)...the rods are the same. IMHO...I would go for the short block as long as the bores arent rusted,and it spins. You could always split the cases and check the bearings. Is the short block from a private owner,or a wrecking yard?? If from a yard...any kind of warrranty,like 30 days??

[John Schmidt]

The short block is from a private owner, but it's a small private shop and he's it. He works on the older bikes, has a regular job and build/rebuilds bikes and engines for others. Seems to have a love affair with these old Wings, has built up a number of them, prefers the 1200. The short block he offered is off a bike he picked up and has removed some parts off the engine for another project. Has about 36k on it, said he got the bike mainly because it was running good when he got it so knew the parts he needed should be in good shape. And said he would stand behind it if needed. He even offered to put it all together for me if I wanted to bring in my old block and heads. Seems to be talented, has upped the compression on a couple engines by filling the combustion chamber then regrinding it out to a smaller capacity, claims to have created one at 10:1 and has to run hitest gas. He's currently building one for himself to mount a blower on, that should be interesting. I usually take such claims with a grain of salt until I see the results, I'll know more once I talk to him and get to know him in person. He wasn't bragging on his work, just answering my questions which is a bit different from a person that won't quit talking about all his exploits even though you never brought it up.

[CYBORG]

sounds like he might know what he is doing. I would be interested in communicating with him. Do you have his Email, or phone number?

[John Schmidt]

Cyborg, you have mail under the name of: stuffy402

I didn't want to post it here until I know more about him as an individual, mainly because I don't want someone to get burned in case it turns out he's not quite what he says he is. Hope you all understand.

[CYBORG]

thanks. I sent him a a rsponse to his listing. I understand your concerns, and appreciate it

[John Schmidt]

Well, got the used pistons in the mail Saturday and checked them out. As previously stated, I spoke too soon re. the condition of the bearings. After cleaning and oiling them they look fine, one set I most likely won't reuse however. I picked up some Plastigage and checked the clearance, found it to be well within specs. Same with the rings on the piston I chose to use in place of the busted one....again, the end gap on all are well withing specs. So I installed the rod/piston, turned the crank around so #2 & #4 are both sticking up next to each other, then oiled everything in sight in preparation to bring the two halves together.

Since I don't have extra hands on such projects, I decided to set up my 8' ladder over the hydraulic table I have the engine sitting on, then from a brace near the top I hung a small block & tackle I have. I have some small chains taken off our large yard swing, more than strong enough to lift the left half of the block. Bolted the chains to the block and hung it from the block & tackle, then lifted that half up high enough to clear the other half of the block. Then, just rolled the table forward a bit so the two halves are one above the other. I locked down the b&t, then just started jacking the lift table up in an effort to insert the pistons. Two hours later....still no joy. My system works quite well and leaves both hands free to guide the pistons as I jack up the table, I just can't get them started. Tomorrow I plan to hit a couple parts places to see if I can get different ring compressors, I tried the hose clamp method to no avail and I'm afraid to trust the chamfer being able to force the rings into place. I'm open to any suggestions, I did use some scrap wood; 1/2" thick, 1.5 wide, about 10" long to help hold the pistons upright. But they kept falling to one side so just started using my hands to hold & guide them. I'm quite frustrated, especially after all the auto motors I've messed with over the years and finding I can't do crap with this little thing.

[robin1731]

I need to ask. Did you have any sealant on the case halves? They do need to be sealed. If you had to leave it over night they will need to be cleaned and resealed.

[CYBORG]

The secret in your case might be the wooden blocks. They should not allow the pistons to move. I think the manual has the dimensions to build them to do that

[John Schmidt]

Robin, no sealer at this time, was planning on leaving the cases separated enough to "schmooie" (technical term) it on after I got the pistons in place.

Cyborg, I'll take a look in the manual again, I have a regular Honda shop manual with all the addendums for the 1200's. Found it on ebay for a great price a couple years back and figured it might come in handy one day, was well before I bought the current headache. Wish it came with some Valium!!!

[Norbert R]

John, I struggled too, until I followed the advice to have both pistons perfectly alligned and level, and to bring the left case down very evenly and level.
Then it was ridiculously easy after all the struggling !!! Didn't need the hose clamps either...

The little blocks of wood are the key.
Watch AussieGolds video's
Good luck

[gltriker]

John, I struggled too, until I followed the advice to have both pistons perfectly alligned and level, and to bring the left case down very evenly and level.
Then it was ridiculously easy after all the struggling !!! Didn't need the hose clamps either...

The little blocks of wood are the key.
Watch AussieGolds video's
Good luck

http://www.ngwclub.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 8&start=30

[gltriker]

John,

After I watched Aussiegold's video part 3 and noted how much joggling of the upper case was required, with 'hose clamp ring compressors' employed as part of the process, the thought came to me that your method of suspending the upper case from multiple chain sections would most certainly limit the freedom of movement, range of motion in multiple planes, to joggle finesse your engine parts together.

Maybe 1 suspending chain section, by itself, would serve that purpose better?

[John Schmidt]

John,

After I watched Aussiegold's video part 3 and noted how much joggling of the upper case was required, with 'hose clamp ring compressors' employed as part of the process, the thought came to me that your method of suspending the upper case from multiple chain sections would most certainly limit the freedom of movement, range of motion in multiple planes, to joggle finesse your engine parts together.

Maybe 1 suspending chain section, by itself, would serve that purpose better?

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Actually, with the chains hooked in sort of a tripod above the case it has a lot of mobility. I originally only had the chain attached in two places and it cocked the case quite a bit higher on one end. With the second chain attached to one additional spot on the case, it brought it to almost perfectly level....to the eye at least. Since it's stable while being hung like that, I can bring the hydraulic table up to let the pistons meet the bottom of the left case. And, it gives me more than enough room to actually hold the pistons level with my hands. Maybe I'm just a bit leery of letting the right half come up hard enough to allow the chamfer at the bottom of the cylinders to force them into place. I bought some new rope for the block/tackle today and after supper will give it another shot. I just want to get the halves back together and bolted down. I can order the gaskets, o-rings, ect., afterward for the front and back covers and while waiting on that there's also a lot of cleaning needed before any painting.....including the clutch slave, it needs a good cleaning, possibly rebuilding. Just getting antsy I guess.

[John Schmidt]

Well, after struggling with the engine for over a dozen hours trying to reengage the pistons into the left case, I'm giving up. I'm not going to spring $225 for the used engine so figure I'll simply chuck the entire project. If there's a buyer within driving distance that is interested in taking it all off my hands, fine....otherwise I'll toss it. I've tried everything I can think of, using all the various suggestions and the recent videos posted; blocks under the pistons, no blocks, ring compressors(hose clamps), no compressor. I couldn't find the factory dimensions for the blocks anywhere in the manual so had to sorta fly blind...trial and error on size and length. Tried even inserting one at a time by turning the crank around where one piston is much higher that the other. Even that didn't work. I have never tried and failed so many times on just about anything as I have on this one seemingly simple task.

As a kid, even before I was old enough to drive I was tearing engines apart. My biggest thrill was tearing down my uncle's old discarded '26 Model T trunk engine, fixing it and putting it back together and it ran. Also learned at a tender young age that magnetos really pack a punch. Over the years and on into my military service, I never had the money to buy a replacement car. So I'd wait until it was warm enough to work in the garage and tear down the engine. I was always kinda satisfied in the fact that my rebuilds usually lasted longer than the factory engine that came with the car. But this engine....at this point it just isn't worth it, I'm tired of trying to accomplish what seems impossible for one person to do. I'll give it one more shot after supper but don't really expect any different results. If not, then I'm at the point where I just want to move on. Kinda ticks me off!